Wrangler TJ EV Conversion

[4x4 EVC]

Ahh, I think the clobbered 4xe secondary market price is more due to perceived reliability than a specific flaw in design, not unlike many other BEV and PHEVs that have been on the market in the last decade.

A good chunk of the market assumed that the 4xe would be the Prius of Jeeps, although I don't think it was actually marketed that way. Unfortunately, since I own one, I got to experience all the bitching on the forums about it. There are owners who used it as a BEV for all intents and purposes, so much so that they whined on the forums about having them go into Fuel and Oil Refresh Mode when the Jeep decided that they were risking the gas and oil going bad from sitting so long.

Not unlike a 392, the 4xe is a party trick. It's a 375 hp / 470 ftlb beast that's heavier than it's ICE counterpart, and it can drive about 20 miles silently without firing up the ICE.

Unlike the 392 the additional power came at no increase in cost when you factor in the now defunct $7,500 tax credit, and if leased actually made the rent cost less than a standard ICE wrangler.

Regardless, I'm in for all the options possible, because a Jeep can have a different meaning to each of us.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

- Patrick

 

[4x4 EVC]

If I recall correctly from the story of the cybertruck on the Rubicon...it made it to the springs...and they generator they brought and the rather sizable (both kw unknown) generator at the springs were insufficient to charge the cybertruck...I suppose with sufficient time it would have done something.

View attachment 650431

-Mac

It's not the size of the generator, that can't be the full / true story.

Charging isn't that complicated, really, I promise.

I still haven't had time to watch the video, (sorry, I've been wiring...), but I'll bet you it was more about how to connect the Tesla NACS connector to whatever is driving by.

So, yes, it's a bit more complicated than jumper-cables. But, seriously, who goes off-road without all your stuff. I mean, seriously, it's not that hard but you do have to bring along an open ended NACS connector, not rocket science.

Whatever, not my job to fix stupid stunts on the trail - thanks for sending this!

- Patrick

 

[srimes]

Yep, I get that, how about this:
View attachment 650415

That and a gallon of gas plus 45 min and you get 20 more miles (about).

I'm calling these the E-Jerry Cans.

I'll be you already have one, or something similar.

- Patrick

Can you charge with the generator while driving? If so that could be a viable option if it's only needed occasionally.

Connecting the engine to the drivetrain is more efficient, though, and why I'd prefer that route.

 

[srimes]

Realistically, there's a reason you are seeing near full size ICEs used in REVs like the Ramcharger. A 10 HP generator might get you something like 5kw/hr charging capacity, which would be gaining you 25 miles per hour it runs using Patrick's impressive efficiency. The Ramcharger is supposed to be using a 130 Kw/Hr generator with a 3.6L Pentastar (that put out something like 270 hp in the JK/JL).

With the used value of the JLU 4xe getting clobbered, it'd be difficult to justify investing the money to build a TJ REV when you could compromise on the all electric range side and pick up a PHEV 4xe in the mid-$20ks with relatively low miles.

EDIT: Corrected inverted hard math.

Yes, there's a reason. The reason is so that people always have a fully-functioning car even if they never plug it in. So they're using engines big enough to sustain fairly-high power use indefinitely.

I don't need the jeep to sustain highway speeds indefinitely, as that isn't how I use it. I do need it to maintain trail speeds, however. An engine connected to the electric motor will be more efficient while moving than a generator, and with the traction motor doing the job of generating power you don't need a separate generator head.

You can't really justify any professional drivetrain conversion by comparing it to used car prices. The 4xe is an interesting vehicle, though.

 

[4x4 EVC]

Can you charge with the generator while driving? If so that could be a viable option if it's only needed occasionally.

Connecting the engine to the drivetrain is more efficient, though, an

Just got the two HV connections mounted for the Tech Box:
View attachment 650281

This is the back of the Tech Box, on the firewall side.

The inverter will be right where it's says Tech Box on the inside.

- Patrick

Well, that went tits up.

The 3-pos connector (Power Out to Motor) bumps into the firewall, both stopping it from sliding back to be flush with the Front Battery Box and completely hindering the release (black handle) from opening - boo.

New plan (#13 in case anybody is keeping count...), move the OBC below the deck of the Platform, freeing up the side of the Tech Box, thereby allowing more room to swing the Power In (2-pos connector) to be mounted there PLUS more options for the GigaVAC Master HV switch to be more easily and usefully mounted to that same side.

The area under the Platform will be mostly cooling plumbing and now the OBC (On Board Charger PLUS DC/DC charger). I'll run up to Terry the Welder and get a sling type bracket made so I can hang the OBC. Probably have to make a cover for that whole thing, we'll see.

Sometimes it feels like a blind man working on a puzzle that's all white and the box cover doesn't match the puzzle, not that it matters because a whole bunch of the pieces are missing or are from other unrelated puzzles.

Pictures when I get them.

- Patrick

 

[4x4 EVC]

Can you charge with the generator while driving? If so that could be a viable option if it's only needed occasionally.

Connecting the engine to the drivetrain is more efficient, though, and why I'd prefer that route.

No, it doesn't work that way, well, no, not at this level, and not for any practical use, no. It's complicated but, no.

- Patrick

 

[4x4 EVC]

Yes, there's a reason. The reason is so that people always have a fully-functioning car even if they never plug it in. So they're using engines big enough to sustain fairly-high power use indefinitely.

I don't need the jeep to sustain highway speeds indefinitely, as that isn't how I use it. I do need it to maintain trail speeds, however. An engine connected to the electric motor will be more efficient while moving than a generator, and with the traction motor doing the job of generating power you don't need a separate generator head.

You can't really justify any professional drivetrain conversion by comparing it to used car prices. The 4xe is an interesting vehicle, though.

100% agree, please, find a hill and scream that in all directions.

Quoting @GATORB8 "Regardless, I'm in for all the options possible, because a Jeep can have a different meaning to each of us.". (bold and ital added by me)

- Patrick

 

[Woodrow]

Ahh, I think the clobbered 4xe secondary market price is more due to perceived reliability than a specific flaw in design, not unlike many other BEV and PHEVs that have been on the market in the last decade.

A good chunk of the market assumed that the 4xe would be the Prius of Jeeps, although I don't think it was actually marketed that way. Unfortunately, since I own one, I got to experience all the bitching on the forums about it. There are owners who used it as a BEV for all intents and purposes, so much so that they whined on the forums about having them go into Fuel and Oil Refresh Mode when the Jeep decided that they were risking the gas and oil going bad from sitting so long.

Not unlike a 392, the 4xe is a party trick. It's a 375 hp / 470 ftlb beast that's heavier than it's ICE counterpart, and it can drive about 20 miles silently without firing up the ICE.

Unlike the 392 the additional power came at no increase in cost when you factor in the now defunct $7,500 tax credit, and if leased actually made the rent cost less than a standard ICE wrangler.

Regardless, I'm in for all the options possible, because a Jeep can have a different meaning to each of us.

A guy I work with has had one (4xe) for a couple of years and likes it alot. Its a daily and he doesn't wheel it.

 

[macleanflood]

I guy I work with has had one (4xe) for a couple of years and likes it alot. Its a daily and he doesn't wheel it.

I'm wondering how much it'll cost to R&R a 4xe. Given the complexity of the dual electric motor system...one sandwiched between the engine and the transmission and another mounted off the crank pulley.

Second, it makes me wonder if I could mod a 4.0 with an electric motor in place of the starter. There's space for some batteries behind the transfer case on the driver's side. I'm not looking for anything more than 20-30 miles of electric range.

That's all I commute and if I could do that with some simple enough mods... maybe a machined adapter that bolts into the starter and accepts a splined electric motor shaft with some offset for clearance.

-Mac

 

[Woodrow]

I'm wondering how much it'll cost to R&R a 4xe. Given the complexity of the dual electric motor system...one sandwiched between the engine and the transmission and another mounted off the crank pulley.

Second, it makes me wonder if I could mod a 4.0 with an electric motor in place of the starter. There's space for some batteries behind the transfer case on the driver's side. I'm not looking for anything more than 20-30 miles of electric range.

That's all I commute and if I could do that with some simple enough mods... maybe a machined adapter that bolts into the starter and accepts a splined electric motor shaft with some offset for clearance.

-Mac

So you would drive off the teeth on the flywheel?

 

[steelhd]

Stock drive train for manual transmission, no bell housing or clutch, we figured out how to get rid of that and still have FULL USE of the transmission and transfercase.

Have you considered a lightweight two speed circle/dirt track transmission and a divorced transfer case?

 

[GATORB8]

I'm wondering how much it'll cost to R&R a 4xe. Given the complexity of the dual electric motor system...one sandwiched between the engine and the transmission and another mounted off the crank pulley.

Second, it makes me wonder if I could mod a 4.0 with an electric motor in place of the starter. There's space for some batteries behind the transfer case on the driver's side. I'm not looking for anything more than 20-30 miles of electric range.

That's all I commute and if I could do that with some simple enough mods... maybe a machined adapter that bolts into the starter and accepts a splined electric motor shaft with some offset for clearance.

-Mac

To make a little more sense of the 4xe think of it this way.

The front motor/generator is basically the exact same thing as E-Torque that is available on a bunch of stuff, it's the evolution of start-stop on the Chrysler side. It replaces the alternator and starter with one unit. The 4xe just uses a big HV battery instead of the 48V that's on the etorque.

The second one isn't some crazy Rubicrawler style installed motor, it's literally part of the transmission and comes as a package from ZF, same (or similiar) to the ZF transmission used in a bunch of the German PHEVs, specifically the Bimmers.

Made me wonder how much the trans runs. New MSRPs in the $6k range. Looks like salvage parts are actually in the same range as the regular 8 speed, in the 1-2k range.

 

[srimes]

I'm wondering how much it'll cost to R&R a 4xe. Given the complexity of the dual electric motor system...one sandwiched between the engine and the transmission and another mounted off the crank pulley.

Second, it makes me wonder if I could mod a 4.0 with an electric motor in place of the starter. There's space for some batteries behind the transfer case on the driver's side. I'm not looking for anything more than 20-30 miles of electric range.

That's all I commute and if I could do that with some simple enough mods... maybe a machined adapter that bolts into the starter and accepts a splined electric motor shaft with some offset for clearance.

-Mac

You don't want to spin the gas engine while running electric-only, so the best place for the electric motor is between the engine and transmission. You can get motors where the shaft extends out both sides, making this simple. A 2.5 would be easier to package.

 

[srimes]

Well, that went tits up.

The 3-pos connector (Power Out to Motor) bumps into the firewall, both stopping it from sliding back to be flush with the Front Battery Box and completely hindering the release (black handle) from opening - boo.

New plan (#13 in case anybody is keeping count...), move the OBC below the deck of the Platform, freeing up the side of the Tech Box, thereby allowing more room to swing the Power In (2-pos connector) to be mounted there PLUS more options for the GigaVAC Master HV switch to be more easily and usefully mounted to that same side.

The area under the Platform will be mostly cooling plumbing and now the OBC (On Board Charger PLUS DC/DC charger). I'll run up to Terry the Welder and get a sling type bracket made so I can hang the OBC. Probably have to make a cover for that whole thing, we'll see.

Sometimes it feels like a blind man working on a puzzle that's all white and the box cover doesn't match the puzzle, not that it matters because a whole bunch of the pieces are missing or are from other unrelated puzzles.

Pictures when I get them.

- Patrick

Don't you have a firewall adjustment tool?

j/k, that wouldn't look professional.

 

[GATORB8]

Don't you have a firewall adjustment tool?
View attachment 650530

j/k, that wouldn't look professional.

I don't know, the bow tie looks pretty professional to me.

 

[macleanflood]

You don't want to spin the gas engine while running electric-only, so the best place for the electric motor is between the engine and transmission. You can get motors where the shaft extends out both sides, making this simple. A 2.5 would be easier to package.

Good point. Maybe the next best place would be a box in-between the front driveshaft and transfer case. Or figure out a way to extend that shaft behind the transfer case to an electric motor.

-Mac

 

[4x4 EVC]

I'm wondering how much it'll cost to R&R a 4xe. Given the complexity of the dual electric motor system...one sandwiched between the engine and the transmission and another mounted off the crank pulley.

Second, it makes me wonder if I could mod a 4.0 with an electric motor in place of the starter. There's space for some batteries behind the transfer case on the driver's side. I'm not looking for anything more than 20-30 miles of electric range.

That's all I commute and if I could do that with some simple enough mods... maybe a machined adapter that bolts into the starter and accepts a splined electric motor shaft with some offset for clearance.

-Mac

Hay Mac, I think you nailed one of our biggest design imperatives: EVERYTHING MUST BE SERVICEABLE by the Owner.

217:1 - that's the ratio of a typical ICE set up of moving parts to a typical EV vehicle engine bay.

AND one of the ways to make it as inexpensive as robotically possible is to drop in a single unit to be both drive unit and everything else other then battery and incorporated drive unit (back, back and front) including suspension.

The problem is, of course, you can't work on a block of Aluminum.

And to make matters worse, at least in the realm of Jeepdom, they are almost 100% non-upgradeable, EOL predetermined. What you get is all there will be for that unit. No swapping in a new head or bigger this or that, nothing. It is what you buy and it will die that way also.

If there's another vehicle on the road that is as engine swapped, I don't know it.

That is simply not an option for a 4xe. I don't pretend to understand who runs Jeep but I'm pretty sure they never owned one.

- Patrick

 

[4x4 EVC]

Super quick, thought you builders and makers would appreciate the jirations I'm going through to fit stuff in.

Here's a quick snap of the major components and the Tech Box.

Here's the Tech Box:

It sits right next to the Front Battery Box and needs to contain:
- Inverter
- BMS (Battery Management System)
- OBC Combo unit (On Board Charger, the combo part is because it also has the DC/DC charger built in, that's the thing that charges the 12v AUX battery from the Pack)
- LV-JV (Low Voltage Junction Box)
- Various wiring harnesses
- Hand full of custom busbars
- 2 fuse boxes (HV and LV)
- Comms (including CAN Bus Hub we build in-house)
- 400amp main traction fuse
- GigaVac Master Switch
- Main Contactor (fancy name for a fancy relay)

Here's most of that on a work table:

Good times...

- Patrick

 

[4x4 EVC]

Don't you have a firewall adjustment tool?
View attachment 650530

j/k, that wouldn't look professional.

...and, I don't like to cut or touch ANY stock parts, especially the firewall.

 

[4x4 EVC]

Have you considered a lightweight two speed circle/dirt track transmission and a divorced transfer case?

Please, I've tried everything to figure out how to maintain the drivetrain in an automatic transmission set up.

The state of art right now is a TorqueTrends 1.9:1 reduction unit that sits between the Dana Motor and the NP231 TC.

The Austrians make a similar version that's being used for F-150 conversions. They were pushing me to try it but I thought I'd still with the US made TorqueTrends for now.

My wishlist would be a 2-speed planetary gear reduction unit.

Jeep applied for a patent for this but unfortunately, so did GM and about a half dozen other auto makeres or OEM auto parts makers. Nobody has one or have shown one, yet.

It's early days in this, our new found world of electrified moving parts.

Exciting times.

- Patrick