Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts

Torque specs for control arms, effected by kroil?

97' 4 Popper

Opened a Can of Worms
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This may seem like a silly question, but should I reduce torque specs if a bolt was soaked in kroil? I soaked my control arm bolts/nuts in kroil, to loosen and re tighten them. I sprayed the nuts in fall, and there's still some kroil coming out now. Normally when using kroil I would remove something completely and clean the threads. In this case I'm just re tightening. The lowers are supposed to be torqued to 130 but it only took 100 pds to remove.

Should I pay more attention to the bushings not over compressing, or just give it 130 pds.

On a side note, why the changes in torque so dramatic for the front lower control arm axle bolt? It's 85 ft pds, then 120, then 130, for 2002, 2003, and 2004. Only thing that changed was cam bolt to regular style bolt and washer.
 
Probably. I believe the spec is 33 percent for Loctite. But I firmly believe in over tightening things and don't like doing math.

It's a good point and I'm curious to see what folks who actually know what they're talking about say...

-Mac

P.S. Technically I think it's affected and not effected. Of that I do have some expertise and a degree in Journalism. And Kroil...but I quibble...
 
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This may seem like a silly question, but should I reduce torque specs if a bolt was soaked in kroil? I soaked my control arm bolts/nuts in kroil, to loosen and re tighten them. I sprayed the nuts in fall, and there's still some kroil coming out now. Normally when using kroil I would remove something completely and clean the threads. In this case I'm just re tightening. The lowers are supposed to be torqued to 130 but it only took 100 pds to remove.

Should I pay more attention to the bushings not over compressing, or just give it 130 pds.

On a side note, why the changes in torque so dramatic for the front lower control arm axle bolt? It's 85 ft pds, then 120, then 130, for 2002, 2003, and 2004. Only thing that changed was cam bolt to regular style bolt and washer.

I know antiseize for sure effects what you should set your torque wrench to. I wouldn't imagine it'd be all that bad if you did the factory torque spec, no?
 
I know antiseize for sure effects what you should set your torque wrench to. I wouldn't imagine it'd be all that bad if you did the factory torque spec, no?

Honestly at this point it's more of an ocd thing than anything else. I don't want to over tighten the bolts. The bushings aren't being squished yet though. I am not very strong at all and it barely took much force to loosen the lowers with me laying on my back in a cramped position, they should have been on there pretty good. i snugged them back up with a breaker bar to the same level of force, checked them with a torque wrench and they are over 100 now.

My 2006 TJ I torqued the axle end of the front lower control arm to 85 pounds, 3 years later I am now realizing the torque spec is 130 pds, a full 45 pounds more. Nothing has loosened up or caused any problems. 🤡
 
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The only thing to add to what LONGJP2 posted above; would be to ensure the vehicle is on the ground with full vehicle weight on the tires while loosening and retorquing the control arm bolts.
This ensures the control arm bushings are in the normal operating position; not preloaded when the tires are off the ground and no vehicle weight applied causing the control ams to be positioned downward. When the vehicle weight is applied with the tires on the ground; the control arms are moved upward preloading the bushings.
Preloaded bushings will create an odd vehicle ride and premature bushing wear.
 
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Torque specs are created by the design engineer with new parts (underlined because it's related to the surprise ending.) Yes, any kind of lubrication will affect the bolted joint. A bolted joint is much more complicated than first glance. Essentially, you are stretching the bolt to develop enough force to hold the joint together. The stretch, measured in thousandths of an inch, comes from tightening the nut on the bolt (for a nut and bolt) or just tightening the screw (for a screw into a threaded hole). If you understand how this stretch happens, you'll better understand why lubrication affects the torque required to get the same amount of stretch (and force, since they are proportional.)

The threads on the end of the bolt or screw are in the form of a helix, just like a coil spring (keep that comparison in mind for later). The external threads on the bolt slide inside the internal threads on the nut, so you have a very narrow and long rectangular plane sliding against another, wound in a helix. Now, back to the coil spring. If you think of those planes sliding on each other in the shape of the wire of the spring, you can "unwind" them in your mind. What you end up with are two planes at an angle, and as the bolt is tightened, you are sliding one of them up the other - like pushing a heavy box up a ramp. The angle of the ramp is the helix angle. That angle can be determined by "unwinding" one complete thread to get a right triangle representing a ramp (WARNING: Trigonometry Required!) Here's a sketch I just did to show it, since I've typed a thousand words now, so a picture is in order :ROFLMAO::

1716036073190.png


Hopefully, that all makes sense because all that gobbly-gook is necessary to understand the influence of lubrication (I think). Think of pushing a heavy box up a ramp. What's creating the resistance? Friction, caused by the weight of the box. The friction is affected by the interaction between the bottom of the box and the ramp surface. It's not germane to this explanation, but the angle of the ramp affects it, too. In the case at hand, though, the ramp angle is set by the threads and doesn't change. The weight of the box also affects it, and that is germane. In this analogy, the weight of the box increases as you push it up the ramp because the weight of the box is actually you stretching the bolt by tightening it. The more you tighten, the more it stretches, and the more the box weighs.

So, you're pushing an increasingly heavy box up a ramp. Lucky you! What could you do to make it easier to push it up? Put it on a wheeled cart! Why does that make it so much easier? Because you've drastically affected the frictional force resisting you - in a good way. Wheel bearings have very little friction in them!

Now, I've typed all this out and made a goofy sketch to get to this simple conclusion:

Putting lubrication on the threads is the same as putting your box on a cart. So now use that to think about the Kroil on the threads. With that on the threads, you'll be able to push the box more easily - meaning, it'll take less torque to develop the same stretch on the bolt. If the Kroil works fabulously, and you torque it to spec, the threads could strip or the bolt could fail in tension. :oops:

Now, I alluded to a surprise ending in the introductory sentence. Here it is: since the torque spec is determined using new parts, it's not really applicable if your parts are rusty during assembly (assuming that was the reason for the Kroil). Rust in a bolted joint can seriously affect its performance. If the internal and external threads are rusty, the friction between them can be drastically different. If the internal diameter of the sleeve is reduced by rust build-up, and the external diameter of the bolt is increased by rust build-up, the interference created will work against stretching the bolt. Even increased friction between the head of the screw or nut (whichever is turning when you tighten) can affect the actual bolt stretch.

This surprise ending means that how the lubrication affects the bolt stretch is incredibly complicated on old vehicles and very hard to determine. Using a reduction percentage is wasted effort because it's not even close to uniform for that joint ,on that vehicle, across the multitude of situations that can occur over years of driving it.

I grew up in the rust belt working on rusty stuff (thank goodness I'm not there anymore). I took two different approaches for this situation, depending on my financial status (poor vs. not poor):
  • sab poor - develop a feel for a fastener yielding while being tightened (yielding means you're using so much force, something is permanently stretching prior to breaking). The yielding occurs usually in the threads, but it can also occur across the full diameter of the bolt. The nice thing about yielding is that when you transition from elastic stretching (non-permanent) to inelastic stretching (yielding), the torque at the wrench decreases, and you can develop a feel for that, just as it starts. If you stop immediately, you've just "torqued to yield" which is as tight as you can get it without failing. If the joint was properly designed (🤞), the bolt is not in danger of yielding further under load because the joint is now resisting the forces applied to it, rather than the bolt. The trouble with this method is that developing that feel takes many, many bolted joints and over-tightening-past-yield occurrences.
  • sab not poor - use all new parts in the bolted joint and torque to spec (including whether or not lubrication was in the spec). The trouble with this method is that, in the rust belt (actually, I still do it even though I'm no longer in the rust belt), I use anti-seize on the threads and bolt whenever re-assembling. Unfortunately, when you use anti-seize, you're back to the "how much do I adjust my torque due to the lubrication?" question. My personal journey went from poor to not-poor, so by the time I could afford new parts, I already had developed the feel for yielding. If you haven't, and you're worried about torquing the bolt properly, follow the specs - only use anti-seize if it's specified. You may have to deal with rust later, but that really doesn't happen all that frequently.
I've typed another very long-winded response equivalent to the much more concise, "it depends..." :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
The bolts are not rusted, the control arms are in good shape as well. I sprayed kroil because I don't take any chances due to the previous jeeps being rust buckets. Now I have fasteners that were pretty clean to begin with and are also soaked. Everything has been re tightened back to the same level of force required to remove. I'm gonna finish it off with 55 ft pds for the uppers and 110 for the lowers. Hopefully that gets me pretty close.
 
Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts