Stiff ride woes

[AWayne]

You changed the ride height and that change in ride height affected the shock travel bias in a way that improved the ride quality. You have a shock problem because they are sized inappropriately for your normal ride height.

When I done everything for finding shocks in the winter, with hardtop / steel doors / backseat.. it was fine.

My point is that if removing those or adding a few hundred pounds of anything affect ride quality (shock travel) that much, it's plausible that a Jeep being 2.5/AX5 with no top is the similar scenario. If he had a supercharger and winch, and a hardtop and some bricks in the back it might just be fine.

 

[jjvw]

When I done everything for finding shocks in the winter, with hardtop / steel doors / backseat.. it was fine.

My point is that if removing those or adding a few hundred pounds of anything affect ride quality (shock travel) that much, it's plausible that a Jeep being 2.5/AX5 with no top is the similar scenario. If he had a supercharger and winch, and a hardtop and some bricks in the back it might just be fine.

It all goes back to how well the shocks are able to work. That starts with the travel bias.

 

[AWayne]

It all goes back to how well the shocks are able to work. That starts with the travel bias.

Yep. And I would imagine most off the shelf lift kits are paired with certain part number shocks, with the ideology that it will be on a heavier jeep. I.E., winch, 4.0, larger transmission (AX15/NV3550), hardtop, heavy spare. As most will have.

If you have a heavy rig, it'll work fine enough for most. But something set-up lighter is going to suck.

 

[jjvw]

Yep. And I would imagine most off the shelf lift kits are paired with certain part number shocks, with the ideology that it will be on a heavier jeep. I.E., winch, 4.0, larger transmission (AX15/NV3550), hardtop, heavy spare. As most will have.

If you have a heavy rig, it'll work fine enough for most. But something set-up lighter is going to fuck with that.

You imagine incorrectly, which is why this conversation is the way that it is.

 

[AWayne]

You imagine incorrectly, which is why this conversation is the way that it is.

So a TJ with a 2.5l 4 cylinder, and one with a 500ci Cadillac are going to ride exactly the same, if they have the exact same suspension?

 

[jjvw]

So a TJ with a 2.5l 4 cylinder, and one with a 500ci Cadillac are going to ride exactly the same, if they have the exact same suspension?

To create this irrelevant scenario, we are going to end up with two fundamentally different TJs after one gets a 50+ year old 8.2L V8 crammed into it.

 

[AWayne]

To create this irrelevant scenario, we are going to end up with two fundamentally different TJs after one gets a 50+ year old 8.2L V8 crammed into it.

It's very relevant when discussing ride quality. Shock valving is important. One is a heavier vehicle. It may perform the exact same when testing suspension articulation, but at the end of the day it's going to ride like total shit. Like I was saying, most of the lift kits are more than likely pointed towards a TJ with a heavier weight. Even bone stock, a 2.5l/AX5/soft top TJ will handle different than say a 4.0/auto/hardtop. Start doing things like putting 500 pounds forward/aft and you get an entirely different vehicle, with different needs to have a decent ride.

 

[jjvw]

It's very relevant when discussing ride quality. Shock valving is important. One is a heavier vehicle. It may perform the exact same when testing suspension articulation, but at the end of the day it's going to ride like total shit. Like I was saying, most of the lift kits are more than likely pointed towards a TJ with a heavier weight. Even bone stock, a 2.5l/AX5/soft top TJ will handle different than say a 4.0/auto/hardtop. Start doing things like putting 500 pounds forward/aft and you get an entirely different vehicle, with different needs to have a decent ride.

In this irrelevant scenario, these two TJs will have different sets of coils to create the same ride height and by extension the same shock travel bias (barring other specific travel limitations). Now we get to the shock problem to create the desired ride qualities and behaviors. We are back to the shocks.

 

[AWayne]

In this irrelevant scenario, these two TJs will have different sets of coils to create the same ride height and by extension the same shock travel bias (barring other specific travel limitations). Now we get to the shock problem to create the desired ride qualities and behaviors. We are back to the shocks.

I've been discussing shocks and their effect on ride quality the entire time. That's been my point. Whatever coil springs give you the desired lift, your shocks will be what determines your ride quality.

A 4 inch lift for a TJ with say Rancho RS5000x's, for example. Fully premade kit. Or even a a RockJock / Currie lift. Spec it out exactly the same.

You put one on a TJ with no doors/ top/ no rear bumper (or spare), no front bumper, 2.5l /AX5, no rear seat...

Then you put the EXACT SAME kit on a 4.0 / Auto, steel doors, aftermarket steel bumper with a heavy wheel/tire, front bumper with winch, etc...

One will feel like you're riding a skateboard over a mountain. One will be much cushier and forgiving.

Once again, if you buy an off the shelf lift kit the shocks are more than likely valved for the more common set up.

 

[CMBD]

For fucks sake...

Apples to apples 2.5 vs 4.0 and off the shelf kits with shocks, the 250ish lb difference between the two isn't going to make one be plush and one complete garbage.

The "more than likely", "I would imagine", and random variable assumptions are a bother.

 

[AWayne]

For fucks sake...

Apples to apples 2.5 vs 4.0 and off the shelf kits with shocks, the 250ish lb difference between the two isn't going to make one be plush and one complete garbage.

The "more than likely", "I would imagine", and random variable assumptions are a bother.

250 pounds of engine. 100 pounds of winch. 100 pounds of big ass steel bumper on the front.

On the rear, a 120 pound hard top. 100 pound (at least) tire carrier. 75 pound rear wheel and tire. 50 pound rear seat.

That's just shy of an 800 pound difference. The difference between 4 grown men standing on the damn hood in a conga line.

So a loaded up 4.0 TJ compared to a 2.5l with most of the weight stripped has a pretty considerable difference. Any of the shocks that are considered to be valved pretty stiff is going to be horrible on a light weight Jeep.

Sorry to derail whoever's thread this was with all this. Do some reading til you find a shock that people regard as too "squishy" and it'll probably be better for your lighter setup. Call some shock manufacturers or speak to some local 4x4 shops and see what people have swapped out for.

 

[JMT]

250 pounds of engine. 100 pounds of winch. 100 pounds of big ass steel bumper on the front.

On the rear, a 120 pound hard top. 100 pound (at least) tire carrier. 75 pound rear wheel and tire. 50 pound rear seat.

That's just shy of an 800 pound difference. The difference between 4 grown men standing on the damn hood in a conga line.

So a loaded up 4.0 TJ compared to a 2.5l with most of the weight stripped has a pretty considerable difference. Any of the shocks that are considered to be valved pretty stiff is going to be horrible on a light weight Jeep.

Sorry to derail whoever's thread this was with all this. Do some reading til you find a shock that people regard as too "squishy" and it'll probably be better for your lighter setup. Call some shock manufacturers or speak to some local 4x4 shops and see what people have swapped out for.

Stop it.

They’d ride different because you have a different ride height. We’re back to shocks and only shocks. Stop talking about springs. Just get your damn ride height set where you want it and then buy the right shocks that split the travel 50:50.

Or just bet on some Fox 2.0’s being your lifesaver.

 

[AWayne]

Stop it.

They’d ride different because you have a different ride height. We’re back to shocks and only shocks. Stop talking about springs. Just get your damn ride height set where you want it and then buy the right shocks that split the travel 50:50.

Or just bet on some Fox 2.0’s being your lifesaver.

Yes, and the ride height is effected by... weight of the vehicle. I've comprised on my TJ because I change my setup every few months. Still not talking about springs. Talking about shocks. I'm fine with my winter/hardtop set up. The summer setup I'm still a little on the light side, which yes raises the ride height and pushes the bias away from 50/50. I haven't been disagreeing with that at all.

All I was trying to tell the dude is that if he's got a super light weight setup, his shocks are probably wrong if they were just the "use these for this lift kit." Which is exactly what it sounds like. Not his fault or the lifts fault. They just aren't the correct shock for his rig. Probably needs something slightly taller to accomodate for the spring not compressing the same as it would under a heavier jeep.

If the weight of everything was closer to a heavier rig.. it may push the bias back in the right direction, closer to 50/50. Otherwise, wrong shock.

This is a whole lot of words to mostly agree with you.

 

[JMT]

Yes, and the ride height is effected by... weight of the vehicle. I've comprised on my TJ because I change my setup every few months. Still not talking about springs. Talking about shocks. I'm fine with my winter/hardtop set up. The summer setup I'm still a little on the light side, which yes raises the ride height and pushes the bias away from 50/50. I haven't been disagreeing with that at all.

All I was trying to tell the dude is that if he's got a super light weight setup, his shocks are probably wrong if they were just the "use these for this lift kit." Which is exactly what it sounds like. Not his fault or the lifts fault. They just aren't the correct shock for his rig. Probably needs something slightly taller to accomodate for the spring not compressing the same as it would under a heavier jeep.

If the weight of everything was closer to a heavier rig.. it may push the bias back in the right direction, closer to 50/50. Otherwise, wrong shock.

This is a whole lot of words to mostly agree with you.

Have to just try a different shock then.

The kits don’t tune shocks to work well on any particular rig. They are general and inconsistent and cheap. No manufacturer knows what your rig weighs. You’re just going to be shooting in the dark. How much money do you have to try shock after shock after shock? Good luck!

 

[AWayne]

Have to just try a different shock then.

Nah. I'm satisfied with how close it is at the moment. I've drove it on 8+ hour trips like it is. Definitely rides better with the weight in the rear, though. And very obviously, pushing the rear down and back towards a better bias.

The kits don’t tune shocks to work well on any particular rig. They are general and inconsistent and cheap. No manufacturer knows what your rig weighs.

Obviously, I don't know for certain.. but I would think with some of the more known companies that provide lifts at least try a couple of employee vehicles/ dedicated test vehicles for research purposes. If they tried the typical 4 inch lifted Jeep with their system, it would more than likely be something kitted out, and whatever shock they recommend reflects it. If their test Jeep had an extra 1000 pounds of crap on it, it's going to be skewed towards a shock that supports that. If it's a super light weight TJ with aluminum pieces all over, smaller engine, yadayda.. too "light" of a shock for somebody with a heavier TJ.

The majority probably just guess and pick the company they get a better profit on for resale, though.

You’re just going to be shooting in the dark. How much money do you have to try shock after shock after shock? Good luck!

I guess it depends on how "perfect" you want your ride quality to be. And how deep your pockets are. If I was in the OP's position, I'd try and find some more threads on here and the other forum to see what others with similar Jeeps have enjoyed. It's all preference, but it's still nice to have some user experience. I'm sure everyone here does their fair bit of review reading on every part they've touched.

 

[The4bangertj]

We’ve talked but others don’t know what I said so I’ll try to reiterate it since I was called out.
Yes my tj is light and that was giving me more lift than I wanted. I was solving a ride height issue not a ride quality issue. The ride quality is almost identical. I was trying to solve specifically a caster issue and reset my travel bias closer to 50/50 rather than 70/40. I had 3.5inch metalcloaks that I was getting 5inches of lift with. This also gave me 3degrees of caster which was too little for how much highway driving I do. Through a lot of searching I ended up getting skyjacker 2.5inch coils which are giving me just over 3inch of lift. With my 2inch of bump (3inch extended when the Rockjock bumps initially touch but give it one inch for compression) I’m sitting at 5inches of up travel and 6 down before the spring unseats. With my current shocks that’s giving me roughly 5up,5down and changed my caster to 6 degrees.
That being said that didn’t change my ride quality like how it handles bumps. It rides better now because of caster. I kept the same shocks and it feels the same since though the travel bias was moved little road bumps never reached either end of its travel.
I tried bilstein 5100s when I had my jeep set up heavier than now and it felt like I was driving with rebar for shocks. I now have Rancho rs5000x and they’re great, especially for the cost.
What i recommend was get new shocks based on how soft you want swap the shocks to be. From softest to stiffest: skyjacker black max, Rancho rs5000x, fox 2.0, bilstein 5100. If your ride height isn’t where ya want it, get that first and then get the shock length set up 50/50 for the new ride height. Foxes arnt soft but they’re not bilstein 5100 stiff either while also being pretty expensive. Close enough I’d be looking at outboarding instead or just go with a cheaper shock to test the waters since a black max is ~50 a shock while a fox is ~200 for one.

 

[thedustyboot]

Lots of member activity since my last update...

To clarify and reiterate what i've got going on for "extra weight" and roughly estimating weight of these items:
hard top (80-100lbs)
33/10.5r15 spare on steel rim (70lbs)
low profile rear bumper (35lbs)
stock front bumper (30lbs)
factory half doors (15lbs each)
rear tube fenders (25lbs each)
(9500lb winch with synthetic rope (90lbs this is accurate)
15psi on and off road
the long arm kit added an estimated 150-200 lbs due to DOM tubing for the links and the 1/4" and 3/8" steel brackets and cast iron flex joints on the frame end.

throwing a bunch of weight in the back to help smooth things out doesn't really work for me. steep coastal mountains and 120hp aren't a good combo hence why im trying to keep this thing light.

the main reason for starting this thread was to hopefully have a discussion about the difficulties and vast differences in suspension products available to us on the market.

when i bought this jeep it had the classic rough cuntry lift and it really did ride like an old chuckwagon. the spring rate of the 2" RC lift coils in unknown but when paired with a bilstein 5100 it rode much nicer (@jjvw yes shocks made all the difference for that combo... but im not done yet) the excel doc found on this forum has incomplete data on RC 2" coil spring figures but from what i can find online they're somewhere between 140 and 190.

Now to update my latest findings:

Yes i splurged and went with the Fox 2.0, and yes I have noticed am improvement in ride quality. dare i say enough to leave it as is for now and let things settle in....

BUT... I'm not quite satisfied yet. As I mentioned in a previous update the front spring rate is 175 and the rear is 240. the rear does sit ever so slightly higher than the front and during my brief test run yesterday before going back to work. the rear felt like it was a bit stiffer compared to the front.

To comment on @jjvw 's preachings on shock bias my observations have been that the shocks are sitting close to 50/50 in the front but 60/40 extended in the rear which explains the slight rake. so is it fair to say i'm getting a bit more than the 4" of advertised lift in the rear because it would seem that way.


TL;DR - swapped to a better quality shock and saw an improvement in ride quality but spring rate specs for the lift kit in question in relation to my desired ride quality is still debatable.

 

[2001 4x4]

To reiterate the weight = ride quality.. I loaded up nearly 300 square feet of vinyl plank wood the other day and it's the best the rear of this shitbox has felt since before the lift.

With no spare, low on fuel, no backseat, it rides like a log wagon in the back. With hardtop, rear seat, packed full of camping bullshit.. not too bad.

If I were you, I'd do some reading on which shocks provide the cushiest ride not only on a jeep, but on some light trucks. Do some forum searching. Get the measurements on what you need for your lift as far as extended/compressed, and sort through some online catalogs. Rancho, Skyjacker, KYB, whatever. I planned on doing this for the front of mine and found a YJ front shock was close, and a 90's explorer was close with KYB Gas-A-Just, which I love on my Comanche. Ended up saying fuck it and sticking Skyjacker Blackmax all the way around it because they were cheap.

Or just talk to Fox and have some made.
View attachment 636550

I've been looking at the Black Max's for my TJ. How do you like them? Do they give you a smooth comfortable ride? I've currently got the Nitro 8000 shocks on my 4" lift with 35" tires and the ride is very jarring if it's not smooth roads. On bad roads or off road it's like a lumber wagon.

 

[AWayne]

I've been looking at the Black Max's for my TJ. How do you like them? Do they give you a smooth comfortable ride? I've currently got the Nitro 8000 shocks on my 4" lift with 35" tires and the ride is very jarring if it's not smooth roads. On bad roads or off road it's like a lumber wagon.

I think for the price, they're a very good shock.

With that, if you swap from a summer to winter set up every year, or add/subtract a fair bit of weight for whatever reason, you'll need to keep that in mind when determining which part number shock you need (extended / compressed length). Without my hardtop and rear seat in the summer, it rides a little stiff. Not the shocks fault. Just out of spec for the current ride height/weight.

At some point I'll probably go to the Rancho RS9000x for the rear so I can dial it up/down for if I'm running heavy or light.

The front does pretty well.