How to install a Ecoboost oil cooler / heater in a 4.0 and why

[MikeE024]

Is there any indirect knock detection taking place that pulls timing on a stock tune or would a tune be required to realize any of that particular benefit?

Fwiw, I noticed timing was pulled when IATs were higher, but there’s no true knock detector involved. My guess is that the PCM predicts the detonation threshold.

For me, EGTs increased and power felt flat as well when timing was pulled. That all changed when IATs were significantly reduced (power came alive and EGTs dropped 150-200*.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Fwiw, I noticed timing was pulled when IATs were higher, but there’s no true knock detector involved. My guess is that the PCM predicts the detonation threshold.

For me, EGTs increased and power felt flat as well when timing was pulled. That all changed when IATs were significantly reduced (power came alive and EGTs dropped 150-200*.

Yeah, no sensor so I didn't know if it was just built into the map to retard the timing (meaning you'd need a tune to leverage any improvement in the detonation threshold) or if it could indirectly pick up detonation through the CKPS, similar to a misfire (which would imply even a stock tune could harvest some benefit).

 

[Steel City 06]

Fwiw, I noticed timing was pulled when IATs were higher, but there’s no true knock detector involved. My guess is that the PCM predicts the detonation threshold.

For me, EGTs increased and power felt flat as well when timing was pulled. That all changed when IATs were significantly reduced (power came alive and EGTs dropped 150-200*.

Yup. In closed loop, air-fuel ratio is actively monitored and adjusted by the oxygen sensors. So if more air is getting in, the engine will notice and adjust. Likewise, if more fuel is being burned, it will adjust.

There are tables of preset values that the PCM uses as a baseline. The PCM "learns" the deviations from this table, and uses them in future actions.

Timing is more of an open loop philosophy, in that it isn't actively adjusted by knock sensors (the TJ does not have any), but it is adjusted by MAP, IAT, MAT (Manifold air temperature, which is approximated by a calculation involving estimated mass air flow, IAT, and ECT), ECT, runtime, among other factors.

Lower IAT and maintain ECTs at a stable level, and the computer will pull timing much less. When timing is pulled, you aren't burning any more or less fuel. However, you are extracting less power from that same amount of fuel - so a loss of efficiency. Cut the amount the computer pulls timing, and you can extract more power from the fuel you are already burning. If you're racing, that means you go faster. If you are cruising, it allows you to back off on the throttle and use less gas to maintain the same speed.

The absolute biggest gains I've noticed are at lower RPMs. For example, I can now easily accelerate up a small incline in 6th gear running 1,400 RPM. Meaning I can save additional fuel by keeping cruising RPMs so low that would cause the average forum driver to blow a gasket.

 

[Steel City 06]

List of relevant and possibly relevant mods:

• Stock exhaust and intake manifolds
• Stock engine internals (except as noted)
• Magnaflow catalytic converters
• Stock catback
• Flowkooler water pump
• Melling high volume oil pump
• Explorer 11-blade fan
• Ecoboost heat exchanger
• M1-301A filter (larger filtration area)
• 5W-30 full synthetic
• Windstar air intake
• Insulated cowl
• Insulated air intake
• Wranglerfix PCM, tuned with HP Tuners
• Wrapped exhaust (catalytic converter section only)
• 48 PSI in 35x12.5

Other things I might also try:

• OEM 19" SPAL fan, Arduino PWM controlled
• Electro-hydraulic power steering
• Electric auxiliary water pump
• Ecoboost exhaust coolant heater
• A/C compressor control by arduino
• Interior climate control by arduino
• Up to 80 PSI in tires
• 75W-90 in front axle in lieu of 75W140
• Coated exhaust headers
• Insulated intake manifolds

 

[MikeE024]

List of relevant and possibly relevant mods:

• Stock exhaust and intake manifolds
• Stock engine internals (except as noted)
• Magnaflow catalytic converters
• Stock catback
• Flowkooler water pump
• Melling high volume oil pump
• Explorer 11-blade fan
• Ecoboost heat exchanger
• M1-301A filter (larger filtration area)
• 5W-30 full synthetic
• Windstar air intake
• Insulated cowl
• Insulated air intake
• Wranglerfix PCM, tuned with HP Tuners
• Wrapped exhaust (catalytic converter section only)
• 48 PSI in 35x12.5

Other things I might also try:

• OEM 19" SPAL fan, Arduino PWM controlled
• Electro-hydraulic power steering
• Electric auxiliary water pump
• Ecoboost exhaust coolant heater
• A/C compressor control by arduino
• Interior climate control by arduino
• Up to 80 PSI in tires
• 75W-90 in front axle in lieu of 75W140
• Coated exhaust headers
• Insulated intake manifolds

Curious what your IATs look like compared to ambient. And what IATs you’ve felt/seen result in pulled timing.

I’m considering trying the cooler idea to go with the turbo setup. I’d be thrilled if it helped with low rpm stuff in addition to keeping the oil at a reasonable temperature. I run Redline mostly bc of their Noack numbers.

Do you think running the cooler is overkill if I’m already paying for the more expensive oil? I’d like to think that it would be a good pairing but I’m only guessing.

The downpipe will be close to the cooler but the DP has ceramic coating (aged) and is lava wrapped.

 

[Steel City 06]

Curious what your IATs look like compared to ambient. And what IATs you’ve felt/seen result in pulled timing.

I’m considering trying the cooler idea to go with the turbo setup. I’d be thrilled if it helped with low rpm stuff in addition to keeping the oil at a reasonable temperature. I run Redline mostly bc of their Noack numbers.

Do you think running the cooler is overkill if I’m already paying for the more expensive oil? I’d like to think that it would be a good pairing but I’m only guessing.

The downpipe will be close to the cooler but the DP has ceramic coating (aged) and is lava wrapped.

By switching to the modified/insulated Windstar intake I was able to reduce IAT by about 40°F. I can't say exactly when it begins to pull timing, as the PCM calculates an estimated MAT (Manifold Air Temperature) based on several factors, including IAT, ECT, and a couple other factors. However, I have certainly noticed it pulls timing much less.

The engine oil cooler also seems to delay when the engine pulls timing since the oil acts as a sort of heat capacitor for the coolant. It greatly dampens engine coolant temperature spikes due to high throttle and low RPM conditions, though it will still reach the same temperature under long-duration steady-state conditions. Given that the PCM calculates MAT using ECT to determine when to begin pulling timing, there is actually a mechanism for why more stable ECTs resulting from an engine oil cooler would result in more advanced timing.

Personally, I would recommend the engine oil cooler/heater in your case. I'm not sure you'd see as much effect on timing, but simply keeping the oil at a consistent temperature should keep it in good condition for far longer, and probably extend the life of the turbocharger itself (especially if it is oil-cooled versus water-cooled). The vast majority of gasoline (and increasingly diesel as well) turbocharged OEM cars are equipped with such a cooler/heat exchanger, which would suggest to me that the OEMs believe they are worth the cost to put them in almost every turbocharged vehicle, and even a number of naturally aspirated vehicles.

The Ecoboost engine I copied the cooler from uses water-cooled turbos rather than oil-cooled, so oil temperature spikes there would not necessarily be as harmful to the turbochargers. It uses an auxiliary water pump for auto stop-start cooling and natural convection for post-shutdown cooling, so the oil cooler likely has little effect on the life of the turbocharger. I suspect the biggest reason it is installed is to improve fuel economy, and secondarily to extend oil life to as long as 10,000 miles.

I would definitely recommend it versus an oil to air oil cooler, since this cooler also acts as a heater and a heat reservoir. Really the only major advantage of an oil to air cooler over the oil to water cooler would be that it adds to the overall cooling capacity of the cooling system, whereas the heat exchanger does not, considering only steady-state conditions. The heat exchanger is also much more compact, and does not require a separate thermostat.

 

[JustDandee]

By switching to the modified/insulated Windstar intake I was able to reduce IAT by about 40°F.

I did not have the means to get pre air intake mod to post intake mod. But do I understand were you able to measure the drop of 40 degrees From the factory location?


I took the approach how close to ambient I could get.



Here I am about 7 degrees from ambient on a 102f degree drive home. More insulation need on my air box.

 

[Steel City 06]

I did not have the means to get pre air intake mod to post intake mod. But do I understand were you able to measure the drop of 40 degrees From the factory location?


I took the approach how close to ambient I could get.

View attachment 479901

Here I am about 7 degrees from ambient on a 102f degree drive home. More insulation need on my air box.

It varies wildly based on road speed, but in general I was running probably 30-60°F above ambient, whereas now I'm closer to 10°F at 25+ mph. This is measured by watching the values using VCM Scanner.

Earlier TJs have an actual manifold air temperature sensor in the manifold rather than in the intake. That is a better way to measure the temperature, as it more accurately reflects the temperature of the air entering the cylinders. Unfortunately I do not have a good way to measure actual MATs at the moment, though I believe I could track the calculated value via VCM Scanner.

Changing and insulating the air intake will have an effect on the measured intake air temperature as well as the manifold air temperature, so in theory both the older and newer TJs would see a reduction in loss of timing. However, given that the newer TJs use an intake air temperature sensor in lieu of a manifold air temperature sensor, insulating the intake) manifold (or exhaust manifold, for that matter) is unlikely to get the computer to pull timing less in the newer TJs, unless the tune is adjusted to take account for the colder air. However, this tune can certainly be made to take advantage of the colder air, since it reduces the propensity of the fuel-air mixture to pre-ignite or detonate.

I've seen a couple threads suggesting people should relocate the MAT sensor to the intake like the later TJs. This certainly will cause the computer to pull timing less often, simply by tricking the PCM into thinking the MAT is far lower than it actually is. The later TJ PCMs do have compensation factors to account for the use of the IAT sensor in lieu of the MAT sensor, so the later TJ PCM would pull timing long before an early TJ PCM with a relocated MAT sensor. This is certainly a "hack" that might give more power and fuel economy, but at increased risk of detonation and pinging.

 

[JustDandee]

It varies wildly based on road speed, but in general I was running probably 30-60°F above ambient, whereas now I'm closer to 10°F at 25+ mph. This is measured by watching the values using VCM Scanner.

Earlier TJs have an actual manifold air temperature sensor in the manifold rather than in the intake. That is a better way to measure the temperature, as it more accurately reflects the temperature of the air entering the cylinders. Unfortunately I do not have a good way to measure actual MATs at the moment, though I believe I could track the calculated value via VCM Scanner.

Changing and insulating the air intake will have an effect on the measured intake air temperature as well as the manifold air temperature, so in theory both the older and newer TJs would see a reduction in loss of timing. However, given that the newer TJs use an intake air temperature sensor in lieu of a manifold air temperature sensor, insulating the intake) manifold (or exhaust manifold, for that matter) is unlikely to get the computer to pull timing less in the newer TJs, unless the tune is adjusted to take account for the colder air. However, this tune can certainly be made to take advantage of the colder air, since it reduces the propensity of the fuel-air mixture to pre-ignite or detonate.

I've seen a couple threads suggesting people should relocate the MAT sensor to the intake like the later TJs. This certainly will cause the computer to pull timing less often, simply by tricking the PCM into thinking the MAT is far lower than it actually is. The later TJ PCMs do have compensation factors to account for the use of the IAT sensor in lieu of the MAT sensor, so the later TJ PCM would pull timing long before an early TJ PCM with a relocated MAT sensor. This is certainly a "hack" that might give more power and fuel economy, but at increased risk of detonation and pinging.

Thanks for the detail I have an 05’ with my own CAI and fuel rail insulation …just pursuing a few ideas on dropping the intake temperatures.

 

[MikeE024]

By switching to the modified/insulated Windstar intake I was able to reduce IAT by about 40°F.

That's awesome man.

I'm usually about 20*–25* over ambient in boost with the intercooler, but it varies from 10*–40* over ambient. I saw almost 50* over ambient once in max boost when it was 110* outside. I'll take it. It stays nice and cool in these colder temps.

I can't say exactly when it begins to pull timing, as the PCM calculates an estimated MAT (Manifold Air Temperature) based on several factors, including IAT, ECT, and a couple other factors. However, I have certainly noticed it pulls timing much less.

I can't remember, did you do the oil cooler after the Windstar mod? Just curious if the numbers changed much before and after the cooler (if you did it after the WS mod).

The engine oil cooler also seems to delay when the engine pulls timing since the oil acts as a sort of heat capacitor for the coolant. It greatly dampens engine coolant temperature spikes due to high throttle and low RPM conditions, though it will still reach the same temperature under long-duration steady-state conditions. Given that the PCM calculates MAT using ECT to determine when to begin pulling timing, there is actually a mechanism for why more stable ECTs resulting from an engine oil cooler would result in more advanced timing.

This probably answers my question above.

Personally, I would recommend the engine oil cooler/heater in your case. I'm not sure you'd see as much effect on timing, but simply keeping the oil at a consistent temperature should keep it in good condition for far longer, and probably extend the life of the turbocharger itself (especially if it is oil-cooled versus water-cooled). The vast majority of gasoline (and increasingly diesel as well) turbocharged OEM cars are equipped with such a cooler/heat exchanger, which would suggest to me that the OEMs believe they are worth the cost to put them in almost every turbocharged vehicle, and even a number of naturally aspirated vehicles.

I would do it mostly for the turbo health since it's oil-cooled.

My biggest fear would be taxing the engine cooling system with the hotter oil, but it sounds like it may not be a problem. I don't fear that being an issue, just trying to do my due diligence before I change things.

Do you recommend I try the Ecoboost version or the Mopar version? I'd prefer to do the most bolt-on option if they perform similarly. I have a tap-and-die kit if it's needed (I didn't quite understand that part). If the Mopar doesn't stick out as far that might help keep the filter from the DP. Not sure if that's a legit constraint or not.

 

[MikeE024]

Earlier TJs have an actual manifold air temperature sensor in the manifold rather than in the intake. That is a better way to measure the temperature, as it more accurately reflects the temperature of the air entering the cylinders. Unfortunately I do not have a good way to measure actual MATs at the moment, though I believe I could track the calculated value via VCM Scanner.

FWIW, I read that it's worse for accuracy to have the IAT in the manifold because the sensor gets heat-soaked from the exhaust manifold and reads hotter than the air coming into the manifold from the TB.

For that reason, I had a 04 IAT sensor bung tig welded to the charge pipe where Banks installs them on their 05/06 kit (right before the TB). I only did this because the turbo kit was for an 04, so there wasn't a clock-in style bung in Bank's charge pipe.

 

[Steel City 06]

That's awesome man.

I'm usually about 20*–25* over ambient in boost with the intercooler, but it varies from 10*–40* over ambient. I saw almost 50* over ambient once in max boost when it was 110* outside. I'll take it. It stays nice and cool in these colder temps.



I can't remember, did you do the oil cooler after the Windstar mod? Just curious if the numbers changed much before and after the cooler (if you did it after the WS mod).



This probably answers my question above.



I would do it mostly for the turbo health since it's oil-cooled.

My biggest fear would be taxing the engine cooling system with the hotter oil, but it sounds like it may not be a problem. I don't fear that being an issue, just trying to do my due diligence before I change things.

Do you recommend I try the Ecoboost version or the Mopar version? I'd prefer to do the most bolt-on option if they perform similarly. I have a tap-and-die kit if it's needed (I didn't quite understand that part). If the Mopar doesn't stick out as far that might help keep the filter from the DP. Not sure if that's a legit constraint or not.

I haven't tested the Mopar version but if that works, it would be way less work since the threaded insert should match the TJ filter nipple thread.

The Ecoboost one is designed for a 400 HP engine that runs 20 PSI of boost stock, so it may be significantly larger and have more capacity. However, it also comes with the extension for an M22 filter, which is way larger than the 3/4" thread used in the TJ, so some sort of adapter or custom insert will be required.

I'm tempted to order the Mopar nipple extension and see if it is long enough to fit in the Ecoboost exchanger.

I did the heat exchanger first, followed by the Windstar intake. The Windstar intake seemed to have the greater effect on engine timing, but I did notice a modest improvement using the heat exchanger as well.

The heat exchanger will have zero effect on IAT.

 

[MikeE024]

I haven't tested the Mopar version but if that works, it would be way less work since the threaded insert should match the TJ filter nipple thread.

The Ecoboost one is designed for a 400 HP engine that runs 20 PSI of boost stock, so it may be significantly larger and have more capacity. However, it also comes with the extension for an M22 filter, which is way larger than the 3/4" thread used in the TJ, so some sort of adapter or custom insert will be required.

I'm tempted to order the Mopar nipple extension and see if it is long enough to fit in the Ecoboost exchanger.

I did the heat exchanger first, followed by the Windstar intake. The Windstar intake seemed to have the greater effect on engine timing, but I did notice a modest improvement using the heat exchanger as well.

The heat exchanger will have zero effect on IAT.

Nice! Now I’m curious about the nipple compatibility. Edit: The EB’s turbo isn't only oil cooled like mine, so maybe the EB exchanger isn’t super oversized for my application.

I understand that the exchanger wont effect IAT I was wondering if timing improved bc of the effect on ECT, but that was me trying to understand that your timing advanced a bunch (which I agree was mostly due to the intake). I noticed a huge difference when my IATs went from 170-250 this summer to 100-150. Finally felt what I paid for.

 

[chili_pepper]

I’m curious about the nipple compatibility.

Always.

Sorry, adult juvenile. I am following this, please continue...

 

[buildbigboats]

Do you recommend I try the Ecoboost version or the Mopar version? I'd prefer to do the most bolt-on option if they perform similarly. I have a tap-and-die kit if it's needed (I didn't quite understand that part). If the Mopar doesn't stick out as far that might help keep the filter from the DP. Not sure if that's a legit constraint or not

Following this thread based on original title and post. Interested to hear how Mopar part works out. Please post your experience if/when you make this mod.
Thanks

 

[MikeE024]

Can you use the Mopar nipple to attach it to the engine block

Did you get an answer to this?

@Ericshere03 can you confirm if the cooler includes the nipple that works for our 4.0L? I ordered the Mopar cooler you recommended in here. Hopefully, the installation simply needs extra coolant hose but otherwise bolts on.

Edit: In my case, the fitment will be pretty tight at the downpipe with the heat exchanger installed when trying to install the oil filter, we'll see what happens.

Edit: I watched this video to better understand the install.

 

[MikeE024]

Got the Mopar oil cooler in today. The nipple connects just fine to my spare M1-204A filter.

TMI...I put some ATP-205 oil seal conditioner in my new Redline oil in an attempt to reduce a leak since I can't change the front crank seal right now. I may not do the cooler install until I get the conditioner out of the engine (not sure if it would degrade the o-ring on the cooler).

 

[MikeE024]

@Steel City 06 hopefully these dimensions help give you an idea on if the Mopar nipple will work for your EB cooler.

Housing depth measurements:

full dept 2-3/8
center bore = 2"
finned area = 1-15/16"

Nipple measurements:

Filter side: 9/16"
Block side: 2-3/32"

I'm tapped out on pics, but the housing bore has an ID of 1" and the nipple's OD is 7/8" (that goes through the housing).

Edit: The coolant port fittings measure at 5/8" and 11/16" where they flare out... not sure if this will this be a potential problem.

 

[MikeE024]

Sorry to jump ship on this guys, but I think I'm going to return the Mopar sandwich filter to RA.

It's going to put the filter really close to the 1000-1600* turbo downpipe and potentially not help as much as it would for a NA engine or downpipe in a different location. I'll jump in here later if I change my mind. Thanks for sharing all the info on this.

 

[Steel City 06]

Sorry to jump ship on this guys, but I think I'm going to return the Mopar sandwich filter to RA.

It's going to put the filter really close to the 1000-1600* turbo downpipe and potentially not help as much as it would for a NA engine or downpipe in a different location. I'll jump in here later if I change my mind. Thanks for sharing all the info on this.

There are remote mount ones too. I've seen them but can't seem to find one now. They have four hose barbs instead of two, so you run your oil line right through it just like the coolant.

Like this, minus the ungodly price tag:
https://lnengineering.com/large-oil-to-water-heat-exchanger-kit.html