Dave Kishpaugh's (Jeep West) geometry correction brackets are now available

[David Kishpaugh]

Dave, What is the story with this one?

3link rear on an lj. There are 4 of identical except for the axle side track bar.

 

[Chris]

Which would mean zero if it's set to off-road.

But I didn’t say anything about only taking people off-road with it, did I?

 

[rasband]

But I didn’t say anything about only taking people off-road with it, did I?

Neither did he

 

[mrblaine]

Dave, I was under the impression that we had a gentleman's agreement not to shit in each other's cheerios?

 

[David Kishpaugh]

Whatever Dave.

Here is your geometry correction kit.

This is my Savvy mid arm.

We did this little climb twice. Same results each time. Tell me more about stability.

You know your doing something right when a short arm can be compared to a mid arm and more than surpass it as a daily driver.

Geometry correction has a touch more anti squat, one of the reasons you can't keep up with it on the street. All it takes to change it is another set of holes also, maybe I'll just add that to the program for the hell of it... since there's a track bar, we can pull bolts out at ride height with our fingers and move the links one at a time.

Tuned shocks compared to a set of $30 rancho's in stock shock mounts?. How do you feel about the $3000 mid arm and 275 bucks for each shock as there's a $165 set of brackets made out of $3 bucks worth of scrap steel that can do it with junk shocks right next to you with 2.72-1 compared to 4-1 as well. I don't even know what gear ratios you guys have, if Starkey is running 456 with 35" tires he's already struggling to keep from killing the engine without staying on it. And, do you think the front mid arm 3link with proper Geometry isn't doing anything on that climb compared to the maxed out front short arms? That's why I do front 3link mid arms with rear short arm geometry correction on rigs that guys have already spent 1200 bucks just for control arms. Not everyone is building a dedicated crawler or race car.

As I said before Geometry correction is much more stable as a single modification compared to outboard shocks and I also stated if you added tuned shocks to the mix you have something to be proud of.
We already know tuned shocks and a sway bars gives Geometry that has bad behavior better manners.

So yeah, "whatever"!

 

[jjvw]

You know your doing something right when a short arm can be compared to a mid arm and more than surpass it as a daily driver.

....

Whatever Dave. That isn't what is going on. Get your head out of your Cheerios.

 

[David Kishpaugh]

Dave, I was under the impression that we had a gentleman's agreement not to shit in each other's cheerios?

I don't believe I did. It's just a set of brackets. I wasn't the one trying to compare it to something we know has more overall potential. If I came across that way, I'm sorry.

Focused at daily driven rigs, I might even add, not the serious off roader.

 

[Tob]

But I didn’t say anything about only taking people off-road with it, did I?

I really wanted to ride in one of the outboarded, midarmed, or otherwise well-set-up Jeeps at TJ Fest to get some sort of point of reference of just how good a TJ can be. Sadly, I did not get the chance. I'd love to get real hands-on experience feeling the difference and comparing TJ's that are built differently. I have pretty limited experience, having only ever driven 2 TJ's. Next year, we can have a day where everyone swaps rigs! I've got dibs on Chris' and jjvw's TJ!

 

[rasband]

How do you feel about the $3000 mid arm and 275 bucks for each shock as there's a $165 set of brackets made out of $3 bucks worth of scrap steel that can do it with junk shocks right next to you with 2.72-1 compared to 4-1 as well.

It seems to keep coming back to the price. By time I buy factory travel + located Fox I’m ahead of ranchos + these brackets where I need to have 3+ holes just to get on a trail. I can’t imagine recommending someone go do that at a trailhead. People happily pay 2x the price of disconnects to avoid this annoyance (but shocks add a lot more value a lot more places).

 

[jjvw]

I really wanted to ride in one of the outboarded, midarmed, or otherwise well-set-up Jeeps at TJ Fest to get some sort of point of reference of just how good a TJ can be. Sadly, I did not get the chance. I'd love to get real hands-on experience feeling the difference and comparing TJ's that are built differently. I have pretty limited experience, having only ever driven 2 TJ's. Next year, we can have a day where everyone swaps rigs! I've got dibs on Chris' and jjvw's TJ!

Anytime!

 

[rasband]

I really wanted to ride in one of the outboarded, midarmed, or otherwise well-set-up Jeeps at TJ Fest to get some sort of point of reference of just how good a TJ can be. Sadly, I did not get the chance. I'd love to get real hands-on experience feeling the difference and comparing TJ's that are built differently. I have pretty limited experience, having only ever driven 2 TJ's. Next year, we can have a day where everyone swaps rigs! I've got dibs on Chris' and jjvw's TJ!

Careful, your wallet will get light quickly. I was considering getting another daily vehicle... I rationalized how much cheaper it is to not buy another and emulate the performance from @jjvw’s. I don’t know enough about the work Blaine did on Chris’s to know how they differ - but driving either/both is a treat!

 

[rasband]

Focused at daily driven rigs, I might even add, not the serious off roader.

That’s a fine compromise to make, I’d just say make sure that’s clear. A lot of this thread changes based on knowing this. Most the attempts to compare would disappear.

 

[toximus]

This thread is like everyone is in a giant LSD thought loop with a side salad of confirmation bias.

 

[jjvw]

This thread is like everyone is in a giant LSD thought loop with a side salad of confirmation bias.

I understand it even less now.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

That’s a fine compromise to make, I’d just say make sure that’s clear. A lot of this thread changes based on knowing this. Most the attempts to compare would disappear.

from the perspective of a mild wheeler with shortarms whose skill level hasn't revealed the kind of problems that call for either a midarm or geometry correction, the last several pages of this thread effectively read like:

A: hey there's these ($165) geometry correction brackets
B: that's dumb, just get a ($3k) midarm it's better

I could have missed it, but I never saw Dave invite that comparison, he only seems to have defended his product against attacks that were never really reasonable considering the price point and target market for each product.

$165 is inexpensive enough that any skeptic on here with welding skills ought to be able to try it out. Hell, I'd do it if I thought I had the expertise to give useful feedback and also was dumb enough to climb into a rig with suspension link brackets that I had welded with my $90 FCAW from Harbor Freight.

 

[toximus]

I never saw Dave invite that comparison

Here you go:

Dave has said that if you aren't going over a 10" travel shock in stock mounts or 12" if mounted outboard, there is little or nothing to gain with either a mid arm or long arm setup over the geo correction... I'm at 10's in the stock location and plan for 12's outboarded in a future mod.

Lol.... you'll find after driving a tj with simple short arm geometry correction, it's much more stable than the tj savvy rear mid arm is without even having a sway bar on it.

Edit: Found more.

You know your doing something right when a short arm can be compared to a mid arm and more than surpass it as a daily driver.

Short arm rear with geometry correction and 3 link mid arm front is about the best we can do running upto 12" travel rear outboards.

Whatever Dave.

I wasn't the one trying to compare it to something we know has more overall potential. If I came across that way, I'm sorry.

 

[jjvw]

from the perspective of a mild wheeler with shortarms whose skill level hasn't revealed the kind of problems that call for either a midarm or geometry correction, the last several pages of this thread effectively read like:

A: hey there's these ($165) geometry correction brackets
B: that's dumb, just get a ($3k) midarm it's better

I could have missed it, but I never saw Dave invite that comparison, he only seems to have defended his product against attacks that were never really reasonable considering the price point and target market for each product.

$165 is inexpensive enough that any skeptic on here with welding skills ought to be able to try it out. Hell, I'd do it if I thought I had the expertise to give useful feedback and also was dumb enough to climb into a rig with suspension link brackets that I had welded with my $90 FCAW from Harbor Freight.

In this context when geometry correction is discussed, there are certain things we expect to have corrected. The idea that off-road use wasn't supposed to be part of that expectation is a more than baffling.

 

[jjvw]

Here you go:

woopsies

 

[Gollywomper]

Regardless of any comparison of other products. There are gains to be had by returning rear geometry to that of less than a 2” lift.
Imagine a 2” lift with 12” of travel controlled by a tuned fox shock.
why would something so simple not be welcomed?

 

[toximus]

woopsies