Interview with former GM engineer on the general degeneration of the modern auto industry

[jeepguy03]

Body control module are cheap and easy for the manufacture , and a night mare for the owner. At my former employer I have seen a headlight burn out on a 2010-2015 Ram truck , it was replaced and still no power to the bulb . The module turned of the circuit since the power draw wasn't there when the bulb burned out. They had to buy a special scan tool to re-enable the module. the scan tool was just under $4000.00 . All for a burnt out head light.

This is what pisses me off more, the lockdown of repairing more than the complexity. I owned a few BMWs from the E9x 3-series platform (2006-2013 3-series) which were even more complex than the 2001 E39 M5 @Chris owned electronics-wise. The good thing was with the enthusiast community surrounding those cars and aftermarket support, pretty much anything dealing with electronics and coding was solvable. The diag software was easily obtained on a Windows laptop and you could plug into the car and reprogram modules that needed replacing somewhat easily with a little internet digging.

My father had the rear differential lock module go out on his 2013 Grand Cherokee Trailhawk a few years ago, lighting the dash up like a Christmas tree. The only way to reprogram the module was through the dealer. Even a few Indy mechanics in the area said they recommend bringing it to the dealer since they didn't have the tool to code it.

When I worked at the insurance company, I saw a few cars that were mechanically totalled. I'm sure electronically totalled will be a thing soon if it isn't already.

 

[Chris]

This is what pisses me off more, the lockdown of repairing more than the complexity. I owned a few BMWs from the E9x 3-series platform (2006-2013 3-series) which were even more complex than the 2001 E39 M5 @Chris owned electronics-wise. The good thing was with the enthusiast community surrounding those cars and aftermarket support, pretty much anything dealing with electronics and coding was solvable. The diag software was easily obtained on a Windows laptop and you could plug into the car and reprogram modules that needed replacing somewhat easily with a little internet digging.

My father had the rear differential lock module go out on his 2013 Grand Cherokee Trailhawk a few years ago, lighting the dash up like a Christmas tree. The only way to reprogram the module was through the dealer. Even a few Indy mechanics in the area said they recommend bringing it to the dealer since they didn't have the tool to code it.

The idea that a module has to be programmed with the VIN number of the vehicle is a joke to me. Even TJs aren't immune to this, unfortunately. However, at least on a TJ there's only one module (two on the earlier models if you count the TCM).

I've owned a lot of BMWs in my days (all M cars) and I'll never own German cars again. They left such an awful taste in my mouth with the over-engineered complexity, the insane cost of parts, and the masochistic engineering that goes into them.

Like you said, all of it has been solved by online communities, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't enjoy working on cars when all I'm doing is electrical diagnostics. I prefer to work on the engine and mechanics, not troubleshooting sensors and modules.

If I could afford a Chevy C10 I'd have one in a heartbeat.

 

[jeepguy03]

The idea that a module has to be programmed with the VIN number of the vehicle is a joke to me. Even TJs aren't immune to this, unfortunately. However, at least on a TJ there's only one module (two on the earlier models if you count the TCM).

I've owned a lot of BMWs in my days (all M cars) and I'll never own German cars again. They left such an awful taste in my mouth with the over-engineered complexity, the insane cost of parts, and the masochistic engineering that goes into them.

Like you said, all of it has been solved by online communities, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't enjoy working on cars when all I'm doing is electrical diagnostics. I prefer to work on the engine and mechanics, not troubleshooting sensors and modules.

If I could afford a Chevy C10 I'd have one in a heartbeat.

I totally agree, the problem is now all cars have the same complexity of BMWs, even "basic" F150s and Ram trucks, and with less aftermarket support or loopholes to fix it yourself. I just bought a 2019 Grand Cherokee 5.7L a few months ago as a daily and love it so far, but know the first electronic problem it has will not be fun. Part of this is the mandate of safety systems on all vehicles (lane assist, etc) the rest are features that are jammed down everyone's throat.

I would never own a modern German car though, they are essentially the beta testers for all the technology that will go into other brands. The ones sitting on the lot now have even more tech than what we owned, but sadly the other brands aren't far behind. Speaking of F150s, I have a coworker who has been without his new F150 for 7 months now, driving a rental while still making payments on his new truck. The tail light/trailer light module went out so he doesn't have any tail lights, part is on backorder, no ETA. He asked for a truck rental since he needs a truck and the dealer laughed.

 

[Chris]

I would never own a modern German car though, they are essentially the beta testers for all the technology that will go into other brands. The ones sitting on the lot now have even more tech than what we owned, but sadly the other brands aren't far behind. Speaking of F150s, I have a coworker who has been without his new F150 for 7 months now, driving a rental while still making payments on his new truck. The tail light/trailer light module went out so he doesn't have any tail lights, part is on backorder, no ETA. He asked for a truck rental since he needs a truck and the dealer laughed.

Yep, and a factory taillight is something like $1000 per side, it's nuts!

I bought the Morimoto LED taillights for mine and kept the factory LED taillights just in case.

The depreciation with German cars says it all. You buy an executive level German sedan and the moment that thing goes out of warranty the price cuts in half. You see them all over online for sale. To the uninformed buyer they say to themselves, "wow, I can get an M3 for such a great price".

I was once that uninformed buyer. I know better now!

Cars aren't fun to work on anymore. This isn't like the days of SBL Chevy's and what not. Now it takes more of a computer expert to work on a car as oppose to a mechanic.

I can't imagine working on hybrids is any better. Imagine having to diagnose one of those!

 

[RangerTJ]

...

I can't imagine working on hybrids is any better. Imagine having to diagnose one of those!

I'm not much for leasing, but if I were getting a hybrid you can bet it would be leased.

I would imagine that one repair trip to the dealer after warranty would erase any and all fuel savings dollars you had acquired over the life of the vehicle.

 

[Chris]

I'm not much for leasing, but if I were getting a hybrid you can bet it would be leased.

I would imagine that one repair trip to the dealer after warranty would erase any and all fuel savings dollars you had acquired over the life of the vehicle.

100% agree with you there. That's a vehicle I'd be leasing, along with any sort of sophisticated German car as well.

 

[Camdenst]

Surprised a scanner wasn’t pointing out a failed module.

My 19 GLI rear drivers side window was sentient, it would randomly choose not to go up or down... the fix was to open the door and then it worked flawlessly. For some reason if the rear door was opened the window worked. VW replaced every part under warranty and it always showed a complete circuit.

 

[Zorba]

My 19 GLI rear drivers side window was sentient, it would randomly choose not to go up or down... the fix was to open the door and then it worked flawlessly. For some reason if the rear door was opened the window worked. VW replaced every part under warranty and it always showed a complete circuit.

Yea, that sounds like a VW all right. We had electrical glitches and gremlins with our '96 Passat TDI. Never again...

 

[RangerTJ]

Speaking of VW, I'm reminded of a comment a mechanic friend of mine made...

"I'd never own a VW due to fear of getting skin cancer from constant exposure to the Check Engine Light"

 

[ColoJeep]

Yea, that sounds like a VW all right. We had electrical glitches and gremlins with our '96 Passat TDI. Never again...

I had the airbag wiring harness rub through in the column on our month old 2002 Golf. I will say that over 7 years of ownership , I NEVER had an electrical issue on our 69 or 71 Baja bugs or our Manx knock off dune buggy built from a 56 bug. Even with their weird exposed element fuses , they ran separate fused circuits to each lamp . Air cooled VW's were tough , reliable , fun to drive , and under powered.

 

[Zorba]

I had the airbag wiring harness rub through in the column on our month old 2002 Golf. I will say that over 7 years of ownership , I NEVER had an electrical issue on our 69 or 71 Baja bugs or our Manx knock off dune buggy built from a 56 bug. Even with their weird exposed element fuses , they ran separate fused circuits to each lamp . Air cooled VW's were tough , reliable , fun to drive , and under powered.

My dad had a 69 and a 73 bug. Good for 100K miles. Then he bought a '77 Rabbit. That finished him on VW.

 

[Camdenst]

I miss the car, fantastic to drive. 125k in 4+ years it only needed oil, tires, and one brake job.... outside of that window glitch.

 

[BlueC]

I just bought a 2019 Grand Cherokee 5.7L a few months ago

I was told not so long ago that Jeeps around that model year and newer can't even have the brake pads changed without telling the computer that you're servicing the brake system, or else it will throw codes and lights. Have you heard that or ran into that problem yet?

 

[TJMexico]

I was told not so long ago that Jeeps around that model year and newer can't even have the brake pads changed without telling the computer that you're servicing the brake system, or else it will throw codes and lights. Have you heard that or ran into that problem yet?

I have not heard nor run into it, but it would not surprise me.

I was considering buying a Cherokee XJ model at one point before the Jeep, so I joined a owner's group on FB to see if I could get some good tips. One of the threads was started by a woman who was driving a late model Cherokee on the Interstate highway in Houston and the damned thing just randomly shut off on her and put itself into PARK right in the middle of the freeway. It would not re-start and she got rear-ended by a pickup doing freeway speed. Said that if her kids had been in the back seat, they'd be dead.

Two or three other owners chimed in and said they had experienced the same thing. The computer just decides it's time to take a nap and shuts down, regardless of where you are or what speed you are going. If you do a DUCKDUCKGO search for the phrase "late model jeep cherokee shuts down randomly while driving," you'll find forum posts where this is happening. Many say that the dealer can't duplicate the problem so they just want to give the car back as-is.

I hope Jeep gets their asses sued off of them because of this. It is obviously a common, re-occuring issue. If nobody has been killed yet, it won't be long.

 

[1o1proof]

2021 grand Cherokee here, 65k miles with no issues…yet, it is a jeep after all.

I agree with a lot that’s been said here, I love working on cars but newer stuff eludes me. Many times I have to rent or borrow some specialty tool, or I end up throwing sensors at it till it’s fixed.
With that said, cars do last a lot longer now, our last 3 have all went 150k miles before selling them.

 

[B1Toad]

I was told not so long ago that Jeeps around that model year and newer can't even have the brake pads changed without telling the computer that you're servicing the brake system, or else it will throw codes and lights. Have you heard that or ran into that problem yet?

That is the case with some VWs as well and probably a lot of other newer cars, and you need to use the scan tool to retract the calipers. I was surprised to learn that on some Mercedes when the wipers are switched on, the brake pads drag ever so slightly to keep the rotors dry.

When I replace the fuel filter on my 2015 TDI I use the scan tool to prime the fuel system, they say if you don't you can damage the HPFP.

 

[B1Toad]

I also started noticing a while ago that hardly any shops do major engine repair anymore, they just replace the engine.

 

[Chris]

That's the trade-off of course.

If you've ever driven any of these modern performance cars, they really do drive amazing. Not only that but even the economy cars are great. We had a Kia Soul rental and I was shocked at how well that thing performed. It consistently averaged 30+ MPG on our 200 mile trip and it felt like it had plenty of pep. It was quiet, rode incredibly well, etc.

New cars are great until they break. Once they break you had better know a good, trustworthy mechanic, or you had better have the tools and skills to work on something modern. Leasing is starting to make more-and-more sense.

 

[Chris]

I also started noticing a while ago that hardly any shops do major engine repair anymore, they just replace the engine.

Yep, I noticed the same thing myself. They don't want to rebuild, they just want to throw in a reman long block.

 

[B1Toad]

Here is the ea288 which is the last 2.0 diesel VW produced for the US market, it's all modular. I guess they just replace whatever section breaks. I do have to say though that I've had one (2015 Sportwagen) since 2019, a buyback car that I bought for chump change. Unbelievable warranty as well, and it's a blast to drive, a little road rocket. So far 61,000 trouble free miles and it sips fuel by the thimble full. It sure doesn't owe me anything even at this early stage.