Sorry I'd missed this one...
I've got their 185* sensor in the Hemi but I had the 215* sensor in my Magnum... So if you'd like to play with one I'll send it to you... You'd have to do your own wiring since that stayed in my Jeep.
Cooling fan upgrade comparison: Explorer 11-blade fan and HD clutch versus SPAL 19" 850-watt electric brushless fan
- Thread starter Steel City 06
- Start date
Sorry I'd missed this one...
I've got their 185* sensor in the Hemi but I had the 215* sensor in my Magnum... So if you'd like to play with one I'll send it to you... You'd have to do your own wiring since that stayed in my Jeep.
Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to make use of it with the OEM fan. I would need to buy one of the aftermarket fans.
Moreso just hoping to egg someone on into messing with it and seeing if they can set up a mid-speed override or even an override control knob...
I don't have A/C hooked up yet so my Blue wire is not used currently. Now one thing I had to go back and check is there is also a Yellow wire that according to the wiring on Wizard Cooling is the 100% on wire.
But now it says the Yellow isn't used... When I've hooked 12V to the Yellow the fan goes to 100%.
I can play with it some after Moab in May...
The yellow wire is probably the analog control wire in that case. So that would probably be the wire you would use. Full 12V+ should give full fan power, anything between ~2V and ~10V should give you some intermediate speed.
That image was one I randomly pulled from online, so no guarantee it applies in every case. There could also be more than one way to make it work.
That image was one I randomly pulled from online, so no guarantee it applies in every case. There could also be more than one way to make it work.
I of course put the wiring diagram that came with the radiator/fan kit somewhere that I can't find now & I'd swore I downloaded one but can't find it either...
Once I get back from Moab I can play with it all more... I'll talk to you off-line and you if that's OK and I'll have you walk me thru a few things.
Some of the stuff I got from SPAL when I was trying to determine if my temp sensor was good or bad...
This trouble shooting guide assumes you have installed the fan system according to SPAL USA’s wiring diagram, and you are trying to determine if the SPAL sensor/SPAL Aftermarket Fan System is functioning properly. These procedures will only work with SPAL Aftermarket ‘Plus’ version fans. If you have questions contact SPAL USA Technical Support.
Red/Black should be run directly to the battery positive and negative terminals, you put a fuse on the red wire. No relays are required. The brushless fan was designed to basically ‘replace’ the relay. Then you just ground the white and power the yellow and the fan should ramp up to full speed.
What are some things you can do to insure proper function from your SPAL brushless fan?
This trouble shooting guide assumes you have installed the fan system according to SPAL USA’s wiring diagram, and you are trying to determine if the SPAL sensor/SPAL Aftermarket Fan System is functioning properly. These procedures will only work with SPAL Aftermarket ‘Plus’ version fans. If you have questions contact SPAL USA Technical Support.
- Test the function of the sensor.
- Apply +12V to the blue wire of the sensor. Does the fan start and run up to full speed?
- Yes – Your fan system is working appropriately. Start engine and verify the fan comes on at appropriate temperatures.
- No – Proceed to step ‘b.’
- Measure DC voltage between the white/PWM wire (from sensor to fan,) and ground. (Both black wires, fan-ground or sensor-ground should work.) Measure voltages with the ignition key off and with the key on/engine off.
- Key off should be battery positive voltage. ~+12.5V.
- Key on should power up the sensor, and voltage will pull down to zero volts. (Engine must be cold, otherwise fan could run.)
- If the voltage does not ‘pull down to zero volts’ when the sensor powers up, the sensor should be replaced. Verify function of the fan with a bench test. Replace sensor and repeat test procedure.
- Bench Testing the brushless fan:
- The fan has 4 wires that can be connected directly to a battery to have the fan operate at full speed. Follow these steps to bench testing the fan.
- Secure the fan so it can operate at full speed safely.
- When the fan is connected in the following sequence, the fan will pulse/wiggle, momentarily stop, then it will start up and ramp up to full speed. Connect the 4 wires from the fan to a battery as follows:
- Red Wire -> Battery Positive (+)
- Yellow Wire -> Battery Positive (+)
- Black Wire -> Battery Negative (-)
- White Wire -> Battery Negative (-)
- Does the fan run at full speed?
- Yes – The fan is behaving properly. Install the fan into the vehicle and proceed to test the function with the sensor. (Note: This test runs the fan off different internal motor circuitry than when it runs from the sensor. This is a ‘good’ test, but is possible to not be 100%. It’s possible the PWM circuit could be damaged, and the fan would function from this test but would be unlikely.)
- No – Return the fan to SPAL USA for analysis and replace the fan.
- The white/PWM wire needs to be switched/connected to ground. When the White/PWM wire is grounded this is sending the fan 0% PWM speed request, but it causes the motor to wake up.
- Once the motor is awake, and asked to run at 0% PWM, the motor will look to the yellow wire for 2-10V analog voltage.
Red/Black should be run directly to the battery positive and negative terminals, you put a fuse on the red wire. No relays are required. The brushless fan was designed to basically ‘replace’ the relay. Then you just ground the white and power the yellow and the fan should ramp up to full speed.
What are some things you can do to insure proper function from your SPAL brushless fan?
- Connect the fan positive (red) and fan negative (black) wires directly to the battery.
- The fan and sensor will communicate better if both devices are connected to the same voltage/ground sources.
- The alternator can create electrical noise and variances in voltages that could cause intermittent communication with the PWM signal. Connecting the fan to the alternator can cause a non-functioning fan.
- Systems with batteries mounted in the trunk.
- Pay extra attention to how the fan is connected to +12V and ground. The added length of the wires can create voltage drop in the system if the fan wires need to be ran to the battery.
- Battery power can be supplied to a junction under the hood, but it is best to have a dedicated circuit for the fan. If the fan is connected to a junction with many different electrical loads, voltage supplied to the fan could vary and cause intermittent function of the fan as the fan and sensor could struggle to communicate properly.
- Corvettes (Fiberglass cars in general.)
- Grounds can be different potentials at different locations around a vehicle. Sometimes these cars can have a difficult time having a consistent ‘ground’ connection in different locations around a vehicle. You may measure a few volts of potential difference between grounds. It’s best to have the fan/sensor be connected directly to battery power/ground.
- Grounds can change as electrical devices turn on/off. Vehicle ‘grounds’ can be dynamic on modern vehicles as increasing electrical loads are added to vehicles. As electrical devices turn on/off on your vehicle your battery needs to supply enough voltage to maintain functions of the devices, but the vehicle must also have grounds sufficient to maintain +12V potential on the vehicle as electrical loads turn on/off on a vehicle. So providing a dedicated power/ground connection to the battery for the fan will result in the highest system reliability.
- Fusing or wiring the brushless fans.
- If you don’t know how much power your fan is capable of consuming contact SPAL USA. SPAL USA can also provide a fusing recommendation for your fan.
- If you don’t know what diameter/type wire to use to install the fans, contact SPAL USA. We are happy to help make sure your install will support the loads of the fan. The following chart can be used in selecting wire diameters, we recommend maintaining less than 5% voltage drop in your wires.
Definitely feel free to reach out. Since I’ve never experimented with the SPAL sensors, I may not have all the answers but I’ll try and answer what I can
Hello everyone, just want to share something I did following this setup mentioned in this post. I used two diodes connected in serial. Why I did that, just to find out if there was away to have the fan on but be able to have the fan speeding slower to higher and see if there is any difference. My results are first at all, fan when turn on the engine is actually more slower I think the actual lower speed the fan can run, less noise. I used a setup of 120/200 on the controller. I can hear the fan speeding up just a little bit after thermostat opens. Keeps temperature around 197. Just want to share this information. Override reacts the same way.
Interesting. In theory, it's basically the same control system, just a much lower ramp-up temperature and wider range. Probably keeps temperatures a bit more stable at the cost of extra energy use.
I did confirm that the lowest RPMs I get with my setup (one diode and 160F on) does start at the slowest fan speed that the fan can operate (about 30W), unless the coolant outlet leg is already fairly hot, at which point it usually jumps into the next lowest state.
Thank you for the feed back. Not sure why but fan starts slower using this setup, can’t tell why. Been driving around around 91f (ambient temperature) and temp is at 199. I can’t hear that ramp using the 130/190 for example. Using the 160/200 the fan speeds faster. Ina bout a week we will a little over 100f. Definitely I will know if the fan is ramping a lot or not. I don’t have away to check fan speed right now. Been at 199 right now it means I’m about 179 on the radiator outlet? If that’s the case, it means I’m a little over 50% fan capacity. I think.
Probably way below 179°F on the radiator outlet. You will see a 20-25°F drop across the radiator with a fully open thermostat, which you probably won't actually see until about 210°F engine temperature (usually 15-20°F over the rated thermostat opening temperature).
At partial thermostat opening, the temperature drop will be way higher.
Also note the 160/200°F setting will not work (in the non-linear way) with two diodes in series. (It has to be one.) I'm not actually sure it would even turn on in ambient conditions, and it would basically be a normal control system with a linear ramp.
What the diodes are doing is essentially fooling the controller into thinking that the temperature never goes below a certain setpoint. In the case of one diode, the temperature never seems to go below 160°F. I'd have to do the math for two, but two diodes would make a lower "minimum temperature" which I'm guessing based on your experience is around 120°F.
Turns out if you really want cold AC, you just need a little propane...
32°F coming out of the vents, 76°F going in the intake, moderate humidity, 2,000 RPM, max blower speed and max fan speed.
All I did was swap the R134A with a R290/600a blend and put in an adjustable low pressure switch. A/C is now stupid cold and also uses less energy
32°F coming out of the vents, 76°F going in the intake, moderate humidity, 2,000 RPM, max blower speed and max fan speed.
All I did was swap the R134A with a R290/600a blend and put in an adjustable low pressure switch. A/C is now stupid cold and also uses less energy
it's a great refrigerant. The industry is dumb for not having gone straight to propane instead of spending the last 2 decades in this whack-a-mole game through CFC's, HFC's, and HFO's. I suspect everything will be natural refrigerants in another decade and then hopefully we can direct our engineering resources on things that will actually make the systems better.
Pure propane (R290) runs more like R22 pressures so I wouldn't put it straight in an automotive system designed for R12 or R134a, however R600a (isobutane) runs way low so mixing that in, at the right proportions, can bring it into the range of design pressures used in automotive. They have wildly different boiling points at equal pressures so there's some weirdness there that I would have to run numbers on to fully understand - instead of having a single boiling point, they end up having a bubble point which is where it first starts to bubble (R290 is boiling) and a dew point, where the last of the R600a is boiling off (or first beginning to condense on the way down).
Chemically it's compatible with both the mineral oil used with R12 and the POE oil used with R134a. I'm not sure about seals though...there are going to be some types of rubber and plastic that may not react well but I don't know whether they are commonly used in automotive compressors.
Here's a comparison if anybody is interested in nerding out over this stuff.
https://assets.danfoss.com/documents/latest/90305/AB270523412055en-000101.pdf
If its running 32* out of the vents could it freeze the evaporator and need defrost cycles?
Yes, I had the low pressure sensor set a wee bit too low for this one. Would be awesome if it was 90+ but below 70°F and freezing would definitely become an issue
Most of the stuff on the market is intended to mimic R12. Hence why it is often sold as R12a.
It used to be sold as a drop in replacement for R12 and R22, but now it's apparently only legal for R134a systems.
I used Duracool, but Duracool, Envirosafe, Red Tek, and Hychill are all pretty much the same blend.
About 7-8 oz is all it took after pulling a vacuum. More than 8 oz will overcharge it for sure.
As for seals, it should be compatible with most, if not all seals.
that speaks to the difference in the properties of each gas.
I have a few minutes to nerd out so I'm gonna do a science dump on you guys.
Compressors grab handfuls of vapor so they are evaluated in volume flow, regardless of refrigerant type if it has roughly similar lift (pressure rise from suction to discharge) it's going to pull basically the same cubic feet per hour or cubic meters per second. But the heat of vaporization is based on mass, so if you have a more dense vapor then the compressor will move more mass. That gets multiplied by the heat of vaporization.
Where Q is volumetric flow rate, rho is density and hfg is enthalpy of vaporization for the refrigerant at the appropriate suction gas condition (saturated vapor around ~45°F is close enough, the truth is it's superheated but that doesn't matter for this exercise). We don't know the Q for our compressor but since it's fixed anyway, we can ignore it and just compare the density*enthalpy of vaporization for different gases to estimate how they will perform relative to one another.
The next piece is on the high side, we want to make sure the candidate being evaluated is at fairly similar saturation pressure at the high end, 130-140F. If it's not, it'll trip the high pressure switch and shut it down, reduce the compressor performance or worse, rupture the safety relief and blow the charge. There are 3 pressure ranges that most common refrigerants fall into - isobutane, R12, R134a are lower and often operate with 350psi relief pressures; propane and R22 as well as most used in refrigeration like R404a, R407c, R407a, R448a, R422d are kindof in the middle with 450 psi relief, and then stuff like R410a and R454a/b/c and I believe R32 is all up high usually using 650psi relief valves. CO2 is an oddball and gets designed for relief pressures of 1000psi+ which gets really expensive, and it's supercritical above 86F (which means it behaves not quite like a liquid or a gas) so the systems are designed completely differently and make it ineligible to retrofit into anything.
Of course there's more to it than just the gas properties, so you can't just put a new gas that's twice as dense or has twice the latent enthalpy into a 3 ton residential unit and turn it into a 6 ton. The heat exchangers for the most part only care about the temperature difference across them so if your compressor capacity goes up, the HX's stay the same which means you just run a bit lower on the low side and a bit higher on the high side so that the temperature difference allows for the heat flux to match, but that reduced low side decreases the suction gas density, which reduces the compressor mass flow and cooling capacity until they balance out. Back in the day we found this point graphically using a cross plot (red is compressor and condenser, green is evaporator at different entering air conditions). Putting a higher performing refrigerant (or a larger compressor) in the system basically moves that red line upward in the plot, which shifts the intersections up and to the left - so you get some of the benefit, but not the full proportion. And if you really doubled it, it would pull so low that you'd be constantly freezing the evaporator.
Chlorine gas is a more efficient refrigerant than propane, but for obvious reasons, chlorine gas is not used anymore at all, and propane is not used in mobile applications, lol!
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