PSC pump howling again at higher RPMs

[Gollywomper]

While I am waiting for the ice storm in Texas to subside so PSC folks can safely return to work. I drove my Jeep today. Same noise as usual until it warmed up a bit. Then it went away, well mostly, at least back to the normal high RPM pump noise they have always had. Which explains why I didn’t notice it u til winter temps kicked in, which is still average in the 50s so nothing extreme. I will start it again in a few hours to verify it is an ambient temp deal. Just kind of weird.

 

[JAYNE]

While I am waiting for the ice storm in Texas to subside so PSC folks can safely return to work. I drove my Jeep today. Same noise as usual until it warmed up a bit. Then it went away, well mostly, at least back to the normal high RPM pump noise they have always had. Which explains why I didn’t notice it u til winter temps kicked in, which is still average in the 50s so nothing extreme. I will start it again in a few hours to verify it is an ambient temp deal. Just kind of weird.

I’m making a new bracket to move my res and lengthen the hose tonight. Hopefully by this weekend I’ll install my new pump and run the flush then fill with that new fluid. PSC seems very convinced that this new fluid will alleviate the noise issues. I’ll let you know if it helps at all.

 

[Gollywomper]

I’m making a new bracket to move my res and lengthen the hose tonight. Hopefully by this weekend I’ll install my new pump and run the flush then fill with that new fluid. PSC seems very convinced that this new fluid will alleviate the noise issues. I’ll let you know if it helps at all.

I’d not think 50 degrees should need a special fluid. It making noise only when cooler out explains why I only recently have heard the pump. I have not driven the Jeep much since fall.

 

[JAYNE]

I’d not think 50 degrees should need a special fluid. It making noise only when cooler out explains why I only recently have heard the pump. I have not driven the Jeep much since fall.

I couldn't agree more, but god damn the noise it makes when starting is just awful. Only want a power steering pump that doesn’t speak its mind whenever I start the jeep.

 

[Steel City 06]

Sadly, there was nothing wrong with our basic bleeding process or the pumps that affected output or longevity. They were made with a slightly different stiffness in the casting that created a harmonic that caused the siren like noises we all ran into. I worked with PSC on several of them and upon receiving them, they would install them on a non inline engine and fire them up. No noise whatsoever. That led to the development of a "steel" body version that we've been using with no noise issues and we've been able to go back to the same ole basic rudimentary bleeding procedures.

@mrblaine , is this the PSC pump you are referring to?
https://www.pscmotorsports.com/sp1803-8-12.html

I ended up browsing a number of posts on irate4x4, and eventually reached out to Radial Dynamics (both a steering parts vendor and a poster there). Radial Dynamics also at one time sold a CB-X pump (CB-X or CBX is a steel-body CBR), which from what I gathered, had a number of improvements over the CBR, but ultimately the CB-X was discontinued in favor of smaller-displacement TC pumps. His TC pumps have 11cc/rev displacement, compared to the 13.2 cc/rev of his version of the CB-X.

His page for the CB-X pump is still live:
https://radial-dynamics.com/products/cbx-steering-pump
This is the TC pump he is recommending for my application:
https://radial-dynamics.com/collect.../tc-pro-series-high-performance-steering-pump

I am still waiting for a response to see if I can run a small enough pulley to make up the difference in displacement at lower RPMs. I'm less concerned about flow at cruising RPM, and more about flow at low RPMs, such as when rolling through a parking lot.

Lee Power Steering also offers a very similar CB (presumably same thing as a CB-X), but with bearings in lieu of bushings:
https://leepowersteering.com/collec...aw-high-performance-cb-full-bearing-race-pump
Eric at Radial Dynamics mentioned his CB-X was a highly customized version of this one.

I have not yet reached out to Lee Power Steering. I did send a message to PSC about their CBX, but have received no response.

If I get an answer from Radial Dynamics about their TC pump I'll try and update here. So far he's given me a LOT more info than I've posted here, and if he thinks it's safe enough to run a small pulley on the TC to make up the flow at low RPM, I will probably try his TC pump next. Otherwise I may try the Lee CB-X or PSC CBX. Presumably, the biggest difference between the PSC and Lee versions are the use of bearings in the Lee pump and bushings in the PSC pumps. (Eric did note that bushings are often actually quieter than bearings.)

 

[mrblaine]

@mrblaine , is this the PSC pump you are referring to?
https://www.pscmotorsports.com/sp1803-8-12.html

I ended up browsing a number of posts on irate4x4, and eventually reached out to Radial Dynamics (both a steering parts vendor and a poster there). Radial Dynamics also at one time sold a CB-X pump (CB-X or CBX is a steel-body CBR), which from what I gathered, had a number of improvements over the CBR, but ultimately the CB-X was discontinued in favor of smaller-displacement TC pumps. His TC pumps have 11cc/rev displacement, compared to the 13.2 cc/rev of his version of the CB-X.

His page for the CB-X pump is still live:
https://radial-dynamics.com/products/cbx-steering-pump
This is the TC pump he is recommending for my application:
https://radial-dynamics.com/collect.../tc-pro-series-high-performance-steering-pump

I am still waiting for a response to see if I can run a small enough pulley to make up the difference in displacement at lower RPMs. I'm less concerned about flow at cruising RPM, and more about flow at low RPMs, such as when rolling through a parking lot.

Lee Power Steering also offers a very similar CB (presumably same thing as a CB-X), but with bearings in lieu of bushings:
https://leepowersteering.com/collec...aw-high-performance-cb-full-bearing-race-pump
Eric at Radial Dynamics mentioned his CB-X was a highly customized version of this one.

I have not yet reached out to Lee Power Steering. I did send a message to PSC about their CBX, but have received no response.

If I get an answer from Radial Dynamics about their TC pump I'll try and update here. So far he's given me a LOT more info than I've posted here, and if he thinks it's safe enough to run a small pulley on the TC to make up the flow at low RPM, I will probably try his TC pump next. Otherwise I may try the Lee CB-X or PSC CBX. Presumably, the biggest difference between the PSC and Lee versions are the use of bearings in the Lee pump and bushings in the PSC pumps. (Eric did note that bushings are often actually quieter than bearings.)

No idea, PSC gets me what I need when I need it so I have no reason to dig around elsewhere. I do know that running a smaller pulley is 99% of the time detrimental to the pump.

 

[Gollywomper]

We tried a slightly larger pulley on my newest pump. Still has the odd noise when cold, sounds like a loose heat shield, and a slight whine at high rpm’s. I believe it to be a harmonics issue as previously discussed. There has never been any fall off in performance on the pumps. Unless there becomes a performance issue I will run the PSC stuff, they have always done right by me with any issues that have come up.

 

[Steel City 06]

No idea, PSC gets me what I need when I need it so I have no reason to dig around elsewhere. I do know that running a smaller pulley is 99% of the time detrimental to the pump.

If I don't hear back from PSC either, I'll try calling them and asking if their CBX is what you described. Given that the CB/CBX/CB-X is steel body, and their CBX is through-drilled, I would suspect that it is. That said, I'd also be interested to know the displacement and max safe shaft RPM before I buy.

The smaller pulley is indeed a compromise I don't want to make if I can avoid it. The way I see it, I need a certain volumetric flow rate a certain engine RPM. There are two ways to get to that point: increase pulley ratio (to increase pump shaft RPM) or increase displacement. The CB variants are examples of higher displacement. The TC with a smaller pulley would be higher shaft RPM. The big question I would have, is can the TC safely take a 20% higher shaft RPM to make up the difference?

The more off the wall idea I've considered is buying two JL EHPS take-off pumps and paralleling them. Then I would never need to worry about engine RPM, just making sure I have a big enough alternator. The biggest hurdle is that I have no idea what CAN signals to input to control them.

 

[mrblaine]

If I don't hear back from PSC either, I'll try calling them and asking if their CBX is what you described. Given that the CB/CBX/CB-X is steel body, and their CBX is through-drilled, I would suspect that it is. That said, I'd also be interested to know the displacement and max safe shaft RPM before I buy.

The smaller pulley is indeed a compromise I don't want to make if I can avoid it. The way I see it, I need a certain volumetric flow rate a certain engine RPM. There are two ways to get to that point: increase pulley ratio (to increase pump shaft RPM) or increase displacement. The CB variants are examples of higher displacement. The TC with a smaller pulley would be higher shaft RPM. The big question I would have, is can the TC safely take a 20% higher shaft RPM to make up the difference?

The more off the wall idea I've considered is buying two JL EHPS take-off pumps and paralleling them. Then I would never need to worry about engine RPM, just making sure I have a big enough alternator. The biggest hurdle is that I have no idea what CAN signals to input to control them.

More helpful would be knowing what problem you are trying to solve.

 

[Steel City 06]

More helpful would be knowing what problem you are trying to solve.

The Vortec pump I am running isn't silent, though certainly quieter than the PSC pumps. It still does make some noise at higher RPMs. It is also rather borderline on the low-flow RPM. So I'm at a spot where I'd be interested in both more flow at lower engine RPM, and simultaneously trying to get a quieter system. I also am interested in going back to the remote reservoir system, as the current Vortec shortened reservoir is kind of a hack. I need to redo it anyways since I now run 1.5" MML instead of 1", and the cap is very close to contacting the hood again.

So I'm looking around to see what options are out there, namely anything but an aluminum-body CB-series, since those have always proven noisy. It's not an urgent need, since my current setup is adequate. However, I am most interested in finding a long-term solution that has very high reliability. (Ultimately, if that means removing the ram and running a stock-style pump, I will do that.)

In my conversations with Eric at Radial Dynamics, he did mention that a lot of the CBR pumps he's tested have tolerance issues that create noise at higher RPM, and this only becomes apparent when they are dyno tested at 4,200+ RPM, which most shops don't have the equipment to reach.

He also mentioned that the Swepco 715 formulation changed, and this resulted in an exacerbation of a number of noise issues, especially when cold. He mentioned this is why PSC now recommends synthetic fluid in lieu of the 715. His recommendation is Maxima Synthetic PSF. I am running Swepco 715 still, so I may consider just swapping the fluid to see if that makes a significant change.

 

[mrblaine]

The Vortec pump I am running isn't silent, though certainly quieter than the PSC pumps. It still does make some noise at higher RPMs. It is also rather borderline on the low-flow RPM. So I'm at a spot where I'd be interested in both more flow at lower engine RPM, and simultaneously trying to get a quieter system. I also am interested in going back to the remote reservoir system, as the current Vortec shortened reservoir is kind of a hack. I need to redo it anyways since I now run 1.5" MML instead of 1", and the cap is very close to contacting the hood again.

So I'm looking around to see what options are out there, namely anything but an aluminum-body CB-series, since those have always proven noisy. It's not an urgent need, since my current setup is adequate. However, I am most interested in finding a long-term solution that has very high reliability. (Ultimately, if that means removing the ram and running a stock-style pump, I will do that.)

Not quite accurate. We have used and still have in use many aluminum body CB pumps that are very quiet. What changed is the casting somehow and whatever the foundry did, altered the rigidity of the pump housing, we don't know if it is more or less rigid, all we know is there is a harmonic present on the Jeep 4.0 that is not present when the same exact pump is swapped onto a different engine platform.

In my conversations with Eric at Radial Dynamics, he did mention that a lot of the CBR pumps he's tested have tolerance issues that create noise at higher RPM, and this only becomes apparent when they are dyno tested at 4,200+ RPM, which most shops don't have the equipment to reach.

He also mentioned that the Swepco 715 formulation changed, and this resulted in an exacerbation of a number of noise issues, especially when cold. He mentioned this is why PSC now recommends synthetic fluid in lieu of the 715. His recommendation is Maxima Synthetic PSF. I am running Swepco 715 still, so I may consider just swapping the fluid to see if that makes a significant change.

I don't know what Swepco did, but I had to do a drain and fill on fluid that has less than 50 miles on it for a new install. All new. The fluid literally looks like it has been in there for 50,000 miles. Not sure what is going on, but I don't like it.

 

[Gollywomper]

Not quite accurate. We have used and still have in use many aluminum body CB pumps that are very quiet. What changed is the casting somehow and whatever the foundry did, altered the rigidity of the pump housing, we don't know if it is more or less rigid, all we know is there is a harmonic present on the Jeep 4.0 that is not present when the same exact pump is swapped onto a different engine platform.

I don't know what Swepco did, but I had to do a drain and fill on fluid that has less than 50 miles on it for a new install. All new. The fluid literally looks like it has been in there for 50,000 miles. Not sure what is going on, but I don't like it.

Are you still running the Swepco? Or have you found a new fluid?
I noticed on my last pump change the fluid was darker than new. It only had a couple thousand on it with a new gear box.
If a fluid change could help with the cold noise I would be much happier. Spring is almost here now, doesn’t seem to do it when temps are warmer.

 

[mrblaine]

Are you still running the Swepco? Or have you found a new fluid?
I noticed on my last pump change the fluid was darker than new. It only had a couple thousand on it with a new gear box.
If a fluid change could help with the cold noise I would be much happier. Spring is almost here now, doesn’t seem to do it when temps are warmer.

This just happened so until now, all we have been running is Swepco. I'll get a call in next week and see if they have a recommendation for me.

 

[pcoplin]

My good buddy has been having issues with his full hyfro system for a long time, mostly whining real bad when hot and foaming. He's tried several iterations of fluid and reservoir.

Finally have it quiet with pressurized reservoir, and... Mobil 0-20 motor oil. Hah! Aside from tractors, never had heard of anyone using motor oil as hydro fluid. But this was the first year with not a peep from the steering, and we did a LOT of wheeling at Hammers this year. Probably 5 year old pump too. I've always been able to run regular Napa PS fluid or Swepco, personally.

 

[mrblaine]

My good buddy has been having issues with his full hyfro system for a long time, mostly whining real bad when hot and foaming. He's tried several iterations of fluid and reservoir.

Finally have it quiet with pressurized reservoir, and... Mobil 0-20 motor oil. Hah! Aside from tractors, never had heard of anyone using motor oil as hydro fluid. But this was the first year with not a peep from the steering, and we did a LOT of wheeling at Hammers this year. Probably 5 year old pump too. I've always been able to run regular Napa PS fluid or Swepco, personally.

What cooler set up is he using?