Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts

Need radiator recommendation

jscherb

TJ Enthusiast
Original poster
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2020
Messages
887
Location
Wilmington, DE
The OEM radiator in my 2006 LJ Wrangler/pickup lasted 16 years and 120,000 miles. About 2 years ago I replaced it with an aluminum one from Summit. It lasted about 4 months before it started dripping. I called Summit and they gave me credit for it and recommended a slightly more expensive aluminum one, which I purchased (they just charged me the small difference in the prices). Now after 18 months, that one is seeping along one of the seams.

I'm looking for any recommendations based on your experience - I'd like to do this only one more time. Not a fan of all-aluminum ones for obvious reasons but I'd consider one if there's some long-term positive experience to report.

Any recommendations?

AluRadiator.jpg


AllCleanMay21c.jpg
 
Denso has been the “go-to,” though I believe @Irun has done extensive testing. I can’t find his post now.
 
Are there any theories of why 100% aluminum radiators fail?

Could it be from vibration? Would some sort of rubber isolator mounting fix the problem?
 
Denso has been the “go-to,” though I believe @Irun has done extensive testing. I can’t find his post now.
Assuming they are all the same quality, that doesn't work in our part of the world. Might work where you don't need great cooling, that ain't us. There is a well documented thread on it. I fixed his problem by giving him a used Mopar take-out after his mechanic tried to tell him it was everything but the radiator.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MikekiM and JMT
Are there any theories of why 100% aluminum radiators fail?
My theory is they are poorly made.
Could it be from vibration? Would some sort of rubber isolator mounting fix the problem?
The companies that have the failures blame vibration and flex in the grill shell. I tend to point out that if either of those were true, the factory radiator would fail in very short order since it is held in place by 4 small machine screws on each side, #10 size or equivalent with the head of the screw slid into a slot cast into the plastic tank.

If your aluminum isn't tougher than that, then maybe you should learn how to build it better. They aren't even square heads for more grip.
DSC01644.JPG
 
My theory is they are poorly made.

The companies that have the failures blame vibration and flex in the grill shell. I tend to point out that if either of those were true, the factory radiator would fail in very short order since it is held in place by 4 small machine screws on each side, #10 size or equivalent with the head of the screw slid into a slot cast into the plastic tank.

If your aluminum isn't tougher than that, then maybe you should learn how to build it better. They aren't even square heads for more grip.
View attachment 634435

not to mention the grill module has the structure to make it far more rigid than the core support in typical automotive design, protecting the radiator from seeing much flex. That rigid support and attachment may not do it any favors from a shock/vibration standpoint though, which may be a better explanation why the fully-aluminum radiators don't survive as long as the crimped and gasketed modular designs. If I were forced to use an all-Al radiator in a TJ I'd probably try to find a way to implement some isolation in the mounting, like a miniature body mount, or the grommet-washers used in the valve cover.
 
not to mention the grill module has the structure to make it far more rigid than the core support in typical automotive design, protecting the radiator from seeing much flex. That rigid support and attachment may not do it any favors from a shock/vibration standpoint though, which may be a better explanation why the fully-aluminum radiators don't survive as long as the crimped and gasketed modular designs. If I were forced to use an all-Al radiator in a TJ I'd probably try to find a way to implement some isolation in the mounting, like a miniature body mount, or the grommet-washers used in the valve cover.
The aluminum core in the OEM radiator is just as susceptible to shock and vibration. It isn't like there is any shock absorbing quality in the plastic tanks to isolate the core. That and I wouldn't ever refer to the flange mount to core assembly anything resembling robust. Or my way of saying if shock and vibration are present enough to tear up an all aluminum, I don't think the stock radiator would fare any better. I think they just build crap and want to blame their deficiency on anything but their shoddy practices.

Wizard blamed this failure which is an obvious joint failure on the customer mixing 2 types of anti-freeze. The customer didn't, I'm responsible for the installation, flush, and coolant selection. Mopar coolant doesn't tear up aluminum radiators.
1754246971335.png

Not hard to tell what failed after 4 months and sub 5000 miles. They made us ship it back for examination and then denied the warranty claim.

1754247231886.png
 
The aluminum core in the OEM radiator is just as susceptible to shock and vibration. It isn't like there is any shock absorbing quality in the plastic tanks to isolate the core. That and I wouldn't ever refer to the flange mount to core assembly anything resembling robust. Or my way of saying if shock and vibration are present enough to tear up an all aluminum, I don't think the stock radiator would fare any better. I think they just build crap and want to blame their deficiency on anything but their shoddy practices.

Wizard blamed this failure which is an obvious joint failure on the customer mixing 2 types of anti-freeze. The customer didn't, I'm responsible for the installation, flush, and coolant selection. Mopar coolant doesn't tear up aluminum radiators.
View attachment 634514
Not hard to tell what failed after 4 months and sub 5000 miles. They made us ship it back for examination and then denied the warranty claim.

View attachment 634515

my thought process is just that the crimped and gasketed joint may be more flexible and resilient than rigid aluminum in a way that is just enough to matter, reducing the amplitudes of shocks that make it to the core. Not saying the quality isn't shitty, just that it might survive a little longer with some more flexible mounting, and that such mounting would be uniquely beneficial for an all-aluminum radiator.

It could also be more forgiving for thermal expansion, allowing a small degree of freedom for the core to expand, compressing the o-ring before the tubes try to expand into the tank. That wouldn't be unique to TJ's though, so it could be supported or refuted by comparing their failure rates to other vehicles with a typical core support design.

A lot of the more commoditized equipment in the commercial HVAC industry uses this type of heat exchanger as a condenser and the ones that last are mounted in a way that allows for flexibility - basically floating in the equipment structure held in place by slotted plastic retainers or rubber isolation with no rigid connection other than the inlet and outlet connections (which are often on the same end, unlike our radiators). This is on equipment that gets one truck ride and then spends the next 20 years sitting in one place, which means not many shocks, but there are definitely vibrations from multiple rotating machines (fans, compressors) and lots of thermal cycles. They usually don't have a stiff support member on the outside edges so it's only the tubes themselves running tank-to-tank. They're usually e-coated as well. Even with all that, they never last as long as a copper round tube unit and are considered more of a cheap, throwaway commodity item.
 
  • Like
Reactions: D's Jeep Wrld
my thought process is just that the crimped and gasketed joint may be more flexible and resilient than rigid aluminum in a way that is just enough to matter, reducing the amplitudes of shocks that make it to the core. Not saying the quality isn't shitty, just that it might survive a little longer with some more flexible mounting, and that such mounting would be uniquely beneficial for an all-aluminum radiator.

It could also be more forgiving for thermal expansion, allowing a small degree of freedom for the core to expand, compressing the o-ring before the tubes try to expand into the tank. That wouldn't be unique to TJ's though, so it could be supported or refuted by comparing their failure rates to other vehicles with a typical core support design.

A lot of the more commoditized equipment in the commercial HVAC industry uses this type of heat exchanger as a condenser and the ones that last are mounted in a way that allows for flexibility - basically floating in the equipment structure held in place by slotted plastic retainers or rubber isolation. This is on equipment that gets one truck ride and then spends the next 20 years sitting in one place, which means not many shocks, but there are definitely vibrations from multiple rotating machines (fans, compressors) and lots of thermal cycles. They usually don't have a stiff support member on the outside edges so it's only the tubes themselves running tank-to-tank. They're usually e-coated as well. Even with all that, they never last as long as a copper round tube unit and are considered more of a cheap, throwaway commodity item.
I'd buy all of that except the Northern product we used to replace the Wizard was of the same design and worked just fine for many more years in the same vehicle with no issue. I also used one of similar design in Garza's rig in front of the 6 liter LS motor with no problems.
 
  • Like
Reactions: freedom_in_4low
I'd buy all of that except the Northern product we used to replace the Wizard was of the same design and worked just fine for many more years in the same vehicle with no issue. I also used one of similar design in Garza's rig in front of the 6 liter LS motor with no problems.

They don't have to be mutually exclusive. It can be true that the plastic/aluminum radiator is better suited for the TJ's radiator mounting system, while also being true that while it's possible to build an aluminum radiator robust enough to handle it, not all of them are; and that a less robust radiator might live a bit longer if given some isolation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hear
They don't have to be mutually exclusive. It can be true that the plastic/aluminum radiator is better suited for the TJ's radiator mounting system, while also being true that while it's possible to build an aluminum radiator robust enough to handle it, not all of them are; and that a less robust radiator might live a bit longer if given some isolation.
I disagree philosophically because I don't support mediocrity.
 
I disagree philosophically because I don't support mediocrity.

fair enough, but there is room for interpretation as to whether the mediocrity is in the radiator or in the mounting method. You seem decided on it being the former, but the shorter-lived options could very well have "everything you need and nothing you don't" for the vast majority of applications, yet come up short when rigid mounted to a grill assembly in a decades-old design (as nice as it would be for a radiator manufacturer to look at the big picture considering the mounting system and structure for every application they build for, it's just not a realistic expectation). Within the information so far posted on this forum we don't have the data to prove that the same manufacturer of radiators doesn't do just fine in every other application it's used in. If you have such information please share as I'm genuinely interested in it even if it means I change my position (which right now would be best described as "inconclusive").

Would be interesting to see comparative radiator failure rates in JK and later Wranglers, which are rubber mounted, implying that even Jeep thought there was room (or necessity) for improvement...

1754324741059.png
 
fair enough, but there is room for interpretation as to whether the mediocrity is in the radiator or in the mounting method. You seem decided on it being the former, but the shorter-lived options could very well have "everything you need and nothing you don't" for the vast majority of applications, yet come up short when rigid mounted to a grill assembly in a decades-old design (as nice as it would be for a radiator manufacturer to look at the big picture considering the mounting system and structure for every application they build for, it's just not a realistic expectation). Within the information so far posted on this forum we don't have the data to prove that the same manufacturer of radiators doesn't do just fine in every other application it's used in. If you have such information please share as I'm genuinely interested in it even if it means I change my position (which right now would be best described as "inconclusive").

Would be interesting to see comparative radiator failure rates in JK and later Wranglers, which are rubber mounted, implying that even Jeep thought there was room (or necessity) for improvement...

View attachment 634701
I have nothing except a couple million plastic slots to support my position. I would profer that later design changes are not necessarily because they think there is room for improvement, otherwise that spindly upper half of the JK inner C would not exist. The existence of longer tubes in the same diameter and wall thickness shared with the TJ would also not exist in a front axle under the JK that is easily under designed. Seriously Jeep, the same tubes under a 4 door?
 
I don’t have experience with them personally, but I have seen a few on here claim that the new-style Mishimoto radiators with the isolation bushings have been fairly reliable.

I personally run OEM as I got one before the new old stock ran out.

I’ll bet it has to do with the relative stiffness of the designs. The factory hybrid aluminum/plastic radiator is probably capable of taking more flex than the aftermarket all-aluminum radiators as a factor of design.

Part of the issue probably has to do with the wall thickness and how the radiators are assembled. It is a common thought that thicker = stronger, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the aftermarket radiators simply have too much wall thickness, especially at the fillet and butt welds.

Sure, thicker = stronger, but it also means stiffer. In fact, strength is proportional to thickness squared (in flat plate subjected to bending in the weak axis) but stiffness is proportional to thickness cubed So if you have a part that is subjected to flex, sure doubling the thickness will make it 4X stronger against the same load, but against the same displacement, you still have twice the stress than you would in the thinner part.

Since the stiffness of the radiator is small compared to the stiffness of the average radiator grille (assembled with V-bar), it’s unlikely that the overall displacements are going to change much due to the stiffness of the radiator. Phrased differently, the radiator is not intended to be a structural member. So it is fairly safe to assume that the displacements of the fixed mounts aren’t going to change much as a function of radiator strength/stiffness.

As to why the aftermarket radiators are more susceptible here, I would suspect it is largely due to the methods in which they are made. OEM radiators are mass-produced, and at that scale, it is cost effective to form/stamp/crimp everything out of thin sheet metal and assemble it into what you need. Meanwhile, aftermarket radiator manufacturers are stuck with more low-volume methods, and are forced to use techniques (welding, flaring, etc.) that are more suited to heavier wall thickness stock. Some are probably also under the illusion that thicker = stronger = better, which I’m sure the average aftermarket buyer would think as well.

Rubber mounts could indeed be a fix to this issue, as could be making a super-thin walled radiator. However, rubber isolation mounts are almost certainly cheaper (at small production scales) than going thin-walled.

Rubber isolation mounts also eliminate the other trade-offs of going to thinner walls, which could include reduced burst pressure, reduced corrosion life, and increased susceptibility to puncture.

A 3rd solution that I have yet to see in aftermarket radiators is to add significant cross-stiffening independent of the core to the radiator assembly itself. Some heat exchangers are made this way, usually by cutting four triangular openings into the front mounting plate to create an X shape to carry shear forces as tension without allowing significant flex or stress in the radiator core itself. As to whether this would be better or worse than isolation mounts or a thin-wall radiator, I don’t know. Most OEMs now use a combination of thin walls and isolating bushings rather than attempt to make the radiator a structural member.
 
Last edited:
I installed the CSF 2575, works great. Had to find two different screws to attach it. OEM was the wrong size. It was metric, don’t know size. I also used the standard barb connection for the hoses, using hose clamps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: freedom_in_4low
Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts