LJ handles worse after 4" RockJock and Fox 2.0 install

[kafrank05]

I apologize if this and come humbly asking for guidance on a topic that has likely been covered a million times. But I went all out on replacing my cheap 4" lift a year and a half ago with top notch. I replaced with the RockJock 4" all 8 control arms. Fox 2.0 shocks. I have yet to do a body lift, tummy tuck or anything with the slip yoke eliminator. It's an LJ so maybe that aspect wasn't impacted as much. It seems smooth as far as the drive train aspect. The problem is that it really doesn't handle better than before at all with the upgraded lift. In fact it might be worse. I think there is something off about the installation or the geometry of something. I travel a really bumpy road every day that I have to maintain 40mph just to stay with traffic. Problem is I can't predict which lane I will end up in as I go down this road at this speed. The steering is frighteningly busy. Bumps seem to always twist me up. Could anyone lend me their expertise on different things to check? I believe I keep my tires low enough. 33" goodyear duratracs on 15" rims I keep at 28psi. Other than that it is safe to assume I have something stupid with my setup...

 

[Lou]

Pics of your steering linkage from out front of the jeep will help.

 

[macleanflood]

Make a video and post it to YouTube, then copy and paste the link here:

-Mac

 

[Ctdriver86]

Did you do the install, or have a shop do it? Maybe recheck proper torque on all the fasteners.

Does it have a Drop pitman arm?

 

[Duck Doctor]

Agree sounds like you have a legacy drop pitman arm that was installed with the prior lift. Take some pics of the pitman arm and your other steering components.

 

[Unique Username]

Reminds me of an experience I once had with the toe being set incorrectly in another vehicle I had. Either way, I’m sure this group of folks can help you get this sorted out.

 

[Apparition]

Agree sounds like you have a legacy drop pitman arm that was installed with the prior lift. Take some pics of the pitman arm and your other steering components.

Reminds me of an experience I once had with the toe being set incorrectly in another vehicle I had. Either way, I’m sure this group of folks can help you get this sorted out.

I’m thinking either of these or a combination of them is where I’d look.

 

[TheBoogieman]

Strange, I hear RockJock springs ride smooth.
p.s. I'm with the DPA theory.

 

[JMT]

I apologize if this and come humbly asking for guidance on a topic that has likely been covered a million times. But I went all out on replacing my cheap 4" lift a year and a half ago with top notch. I replaced with the RockJock 4" all 8 control arms. Fox 2.0 shocks. I have yet to do a body lift, tummy tuck or anything with the slip yoke eliminator. It's an LJ so maybe that aspect wasn't impacted as much. It seems smooth as far as the drive train aspect. The problem is that it really doesn't handle better than before at all with the upgraded lift. In fact it might be worse. I think there is something off about the installation or the geometry of something. I travel a really bumpy road every day that I have to maintain 40mph just to stay with traffic. Problem is I can't predict which lane I will end up in as I go down this road at this speed. The steering is frighteningly busy. Bumps seem to always twist me up. Could anyone lend me their expertise on different things to check? I believe I keep my tires low enough. 33" goodyear duratracs on 15" rims I keep at 28psi. Other than that it is safe to assume I have something stupid with my setup...

Shocks control ride quality. Fox is a great name in the business but that doesn’t mean they have any business being on your LJ. They are known to be stiff. This is your primary problem.

Lower your tire pressure to 26psi. This is your secondary problem.

Post pics of your steering system as others have suggested. There could be a smoking gun there too.

 

[macleanflood]

Fox is a great name in the business but that doesn’t mean they have any business being on your LJ.

And the stock location...most especially for the rear shocks...limits travel...I waited until I did a rear outboard to install custom tuned Fox 2.0s on the rear. Still running Black Maxes on the front of my TJ until I decide I'm ready to modify the front.

Sans other meaning information I'd suggest throwing a set of Black Max shocks at it... unless you want to spend the money on a custom valve stack for your Foxes. (Assuming you haven't done this already.)

-Mac

P.S. And an Oro SwayLoc!

 

[YonderNorthwest]

Shocks control ride quality. Fox is a great name in the business but that doesn’t mean they have any business being on your LJ. They are known to be stiff. This is your primary problem.

Lower your tire pressure to 26psi. This is your secondary problem.

Post pics of your steering system as others have suggested. There could be a smoking gun there too.

My Fox's are the best riding shocks I've had on my TJ in 20 years of ownership. I also don't think shocks would contribute to the Jeep wandering when driving over bumps. Sounds like an alignment issue to me.

Idk why a DPA would have worse handling after upgrading everything around it. Should be as detrimental as it was before the new kit, no?

 

[Ctdriver86]

My Fox's are the best riding shocks I've had on my TJ in 20 years of ownership. I also don't think shocks would contribute to the Jeep wandering when driving over bumps. Sounds like an alignment issue to me.

Idk why a DPA would have worse handling after upgrading everything around it. Should be as detrimental as it was before the new kit, no?

My thought is he had a shop tell him it needed one, and put it on with the new kit, but there’s no telling.

 

[JMT]

My Fox's are the best riding shocks I've had on my TJ in 20 years of ownership. I also don't think shocks would contribute to the Jeep wandering when driving over bumps.

That can totally be the case. Great on yours. Not great on his. Your travel bias, the exact Fox shocks, age, can all differ and cause a highly variable ride.

I have been driving my LJ lately with no front shocks, just the springs! I can tell you it is weird and it does wander. But with shocks I don’t think it would wander near as much, and this guy has them on, so that makes sense!

 

[lBasket]

I have been driving my LJ lately with no front shocks, just the springs! I can tell you it is weird and it does wander. But with shocks I don’t think it would wander near as much, and this guy has them on, so that makes sense!

 

[JMT]

View attachment 660088

Josh keeps telling people who believe springs affect ride quality to remove the shocks and go for a ride. I had them off anyway. I forgot and went on a short drive to get a coffee where my daughter works and was like, “man, this thing drives weird.” Then I remembered, “no front shocks!” So, I drove it a few more times without front shocks just to experiment.

 

[Apparition]

Josh keeps telling people who believe springs affect ride quality to remove the shocks and go for a ride. I had them off anyway. I forgot and went on a short drive to get a coffee where my daughter works and was like, “man, this thing drives weird.” Then I remembered, “no front shocks!” So, I drove it a few more times without front shocks just to experiment.

So they put them on for a reason, weird.

 

[gasiorv]

This conversation always kills me, spring and damper, it is that simple. For the most part the readily available springs available for the TJ have a common spring rate (in order to support the weight of the TJ at a certain ride height) and thus the only thing that you can really change is the damping (shocks). That is why the ride quality is related directly to the shock, because the spring rate is basically fixed. The spring and damper have to work together, how is removing the shocks all together going to prove anything? You just get a bouncy ride where the spring will compress, store energy, extend, releasing energy, and then bounce storing and releasing energy until there is no more energy to release. So if you have blown shocks you will get a bounce and if you have heavily dampened shocks you will get a stiff ride and everything in between. Location of the shocks as mounted in relation to the spring and the where the shock rod is located in it's stroke can also have an affect because it is affecting the damping characteristics.

Bump steer is what he is most likely experiencing and probably due to drag link and panhard bar relation issue, most likely caused by a drop pitman arm.

 

[AndyG]

OK, I’m late to the party but I’ve got an LJ that drove and rode terrible and it drives and rides great-

Yours is not dialed in.

Forgive me if I post anything redundant . I’m just trying to be helpful.

If you lift one of these and get really negative results in most cases, you lost caster, your toe is wrong, and your axle geometry is askew- and a dropped pitman arm is also often in the mix.

This is all very general.

This is all really common and if you will be diligent, you will be rewarded with a fantastic driving rig.

I would start with a tape measure and a tire pressure gauge.

Again, I have not read the thread. I do want to state that we have extremely experienced people on here that know this platform and you can trust what they say.

I’ve had about seven of these and I do not ever look anywhere else for advice.

 

[JMT]

This conversation always kills me, spring and damper, it is that simple. For the most part the readily available springs available for the TJ have a common spring rate (in order to support the weight of the TJ at a certain ride height) and thus the only thing that you can really change is the damping (shocks). That is why the ride quality is related directly to the shock, because the spring rate is basically fixed. The spring and damper have to work together, how is removing the shocks all together going to prove anything? You just get a bouncy ride where the spring will compress, store energy, extend, releasing energy, and then bounce storing and releasing energy until there is no more energy to release. So if you have blown shocks you will get a bounce and if you have heavily dampened shocks you will get a stiff ride and everything in between. Location of the shocks as mounted in relation to the spring and the where the shock rod is located in it's stroke can also have an affect because it is affecting the damping characteristics.

Bump steer is what he is most likely experiencing and probably due to drag link and panhard bar relation issue, most likely caused by a drop pitman arm.

Josh’s point and yours by implication is the same. People come on here trying to find the best springs! If you thing that will change your ride quality take off the shocks and put multiple sets of springs on there and ride around with each. As you imply, there will be no change in how it drives. Bouncy. That’s the point of the springs only test. To prove what seems impossible for people to believe; that springs don’t relate to ride quality. Spring manufacturers perpetuate the problem by claiming their springs improve ride quality. Whenever Josh or Blaine says it has nothing to do with it there is some kind of war because people claim they changed their springs and got an improved ride. The retort to that is they altered their shock bias. Springs don’t improve ride quality as you said. Shocks do that. That, at least, is my understanding of the springs only experiment.

 

[JMT]

The problem is that it really doesn't handle better than before at all with the upgraded lift. In fact it might be worse. I think there is something off about the installation or the geometry of something. I travel a really bumpy road every day that I have to maintain 40mph just to stay with traffic.

How does it drive on smooth roads? When you say bumpy road do you mean potholes, washboard, or what? When you say the steering is “frighteningly busy” and you get “twisted” up, can you explain that more? Is it darting left and right, is there a dead zone and so it’s wandering? Is it only on bumpy roads?