RC / Barnes double shear track bar?
- Thread starter Dylpickle200
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The bump stops soley exists as a mount for the jounces. The job of the jounces is to slow down the final bit of shock speed before full shock compression.
The amount of bump stop extension required is enough to make the jounce do its job.
The bump stops are not there to protect your track bar. If you have a track bar interference, then find and correct that interference by cycling the axles without springs.
I think you misread my post. I said 35’s on the XJ30’s
JKs and JLs can survive bigger. Ive seen enough carnage personally and know people way smarter than me in the industry that have confirmed my bias. I am of course assuming he has an XJHP30 because his avatar doesnt look like a 65wms+.In my experience the older HP30s fail on the outer ends mostly. Ujoint, bent C, broken balljoints and failed unit bearing. Adding a hydro (again I know people make it work) just doesnt sit well with me. YMMV.
Ps love your thoughts and insights man.
Thats where the miscommunication is. Your assumption is you need bump stop extensions in order for the jounce to do its job. However as long as a pad is there to contact the Jounce it’s going to do its job. Someone with 37” tires on a 3” lift is going to need a lot more bump stop extensions than someone on 35” tires and a 4” lift. Because the tire is going to smash their fender in. The jounce is still going to do its job when the pad gets there it simply depends on how much carnage is going to happen between that point. For me 3” of bump stop fully compresses my jounce and my track bar is at its limit. HOWEVER I still have more available up travel on my shock. So I have 3” of bump stop I can remove. In order to remove it I need to eliminate the interference with my track bar by going double shear. That will allow me to remove 2” of bump stop allowing me to use more of my available shock travel and giving me more flex…
You said it all in your last sentence. I cycled my suspension found interference in my track bar and I’m correcting it by going double shear. You can only bend a horizontal joint so far vertically until it hits its limit. However you can spin a vertical joint 360° vertically without stressing or binding it at all…
All the more reason to cycle the axles without springs to learn what is actually happening, rather than rely too heavily on guesses and feelings.
This isn’t guesses and feelings where are you getting this assumption how else would I know it’s binding if I didn’t flex it without springs and visibly see it bind and hit its limit… I’ll take pics for you when I’m installing the double shear to hopefully help you understand better…
No. My assumption is that components can be selected, assembled, modified and utilized appropriately. That is how I can not care about my specific bump stop extension when I know the jounces are doing their one specific job that has nothing to do with the track bar.
Actually here’s a very good explanation by another user I found in a Facebook group with exactly the same issue exactly the same bump stop extensions length and even a picture to show you… if you wanted more flex you would care about how much bump stop extension you have. Which is where I’m at now. When I didn’t want more flex I was perfectly fine with running 3” of bump extensions and it didn’t bother me one bit…
There is a big bucketful of observation = causation in that sentence that is just not accurate.
Broken balljoints are stupidly rare. I've seen maybe 1-2 over the years. What is attributed to them breaking has nothing to do with the balljoint. 99% of the time the "carnage" is due to the driver breaking a yoke, that breaks a pin off of the u-joint, they keep going and then turn. When the knuckle turns, then the yokes can bypass, get hung up on each other and then the driven yoke shoves the knuckle downward, that pulls the lower ball joint body out of the hole in the inner C and the floating pin out of the upper. I've personally watched that exact scenario happen several times and assisted or did the repair. Customers have called me with similar many more dozens of times.
I'm aware that C's bend, very rare to almost never in JV with hydro assist. What does happen instead is too much force oblongs the hole for the upper joint and it lifts out with finger pressure. That has never happened with hydro out there, it happens a fair bit when the driver can't turn easily when being towed out.
The vast majority of u-joint failures I've seen over the years are in stock shafts. Yokes stretch, cap gets spit out, side of the yoke hole slams into the pin under load and snaps it off. That goes way down when stronger shafts enter the chat. The yokes don't stretch, caps stay in, both pins take the load and they rarely break. Easy way to tell if your stuff if not up to it is if the break is a single pin or both. Both is fair and square, you were just mean to it. Single means you need some stronger shafts.
I have never seen a failed unit bearing that had an intact stub. Lots of them separate when idiots drive without the stub, but they never fail with an intact stub.
What lots of folks miss about hydro is now the load that was 100% endured by the trackbar and steering is now shared and split between the "steering" and the housing.
The steering gear and pump you mentioned is very capable of turning the tires any place the hydro does. The difference is the trackbar and steering take all the force. If you port that gear and add a cylinder to share the load, it all gets better.
At this point you're probably trying to figure out if I'm just being a dick or do I actually know some of that.
I struggled with steering in JV when I started out there. Had Mr. Lee install a big gear and pump at his request. Great, now I can turn in the rocks. Then I noticed my frame side steering gear mount was not happy so Mr. Lee had me install a brace from the snout on the gear over to the other frame rail.
Then I noticed my frame side trackbar mount was not happy. Fine, brace from it over to the other frame rail. Then I spotted the frame cracking between the steering gear mount and the trackbar mount.
Got with Mr. Lee and installed hydro assist. Then I removed the two braces and had no more issues. Shortly thereafter, most of my wheeling buddies solved their issues in JV with similar set ups.
I agree with your sentiment in general, I've just found it to be far easier to deal with than throwing a big axle at the problems.
I don't know whose rig that is but a few things for you. Bar is installed wrong. The washer goes in the recess on the top side of the track bar mount. JJ ball butts to the bottom of the mount. That corner of the spring perch is easily clipped and welded back at a 45. Anyone running a diff cover like that has far more uptravel issues than will be caused by that style of trackbar. Given the side shift I see and it may be camera angle, the axle may not be accurately centered.
EDIT- I don't know what else is going on but it isn't possible to create extreme bumpsteer by putting it back in the stock hole. Just an FYI- that particular group has the worst level of accurate info out off all the ones I've seen.
I can’t speak to him and his install but I was using it as proof of concept me and many many others especially Dave from jeep west know. You can only flex a horizontal joint so far vertically until it starts to bind. That’s where my rig is at. 3” of bump stop is needed to prevent this bind. I have more useable shock and I intend to use it by eliminating the horizontal single shear joint. There’s a reason any custom build/ high flex rig you see uses double shear.
No one is disputing the existence of a range of motion. A problem only exists when the range of motion is exceeded. You can find if your setup exceeds the range of motion by cycling the axle without springs installed.
Your Facebook example is saying his joint is hitting the axle. Not that he has run out of travel. Instead of solving the interference he tossed in too much bump.
I can say from experience that the Currie track bar doesn't bind with 2" bump extension. Possibly less.
I'm not seeing your spring heights and shock travel in this discussion. What are they?
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I probably could have been more clear. I am not implying that a hydro assist causes any of that. I just dont like the idea of adding hydro steering power against little outers because Ive seen enough breakage (usually due to bounce, jump, misaligned steering, WOT, driver error, etc) . Few things are as fun as when a wheeler in the group loses a wheel on the BusyWild (granted it was a CJ BTDT)
I dont think poorly of you or your motivations. I like you. We’ve met before.
Generally I just am for avoiding rabbit holes, especially if a bigger acle is already in the end game plan.The OP just wanted his track bar to not bind. If he’s binding, hydro steer isnt going to change that.
You might have missed the entire point of that. Your suggested steering gear and pump puts the exact same amount of stress on everything. The only thing the assist cylinder does is take some of that stress off of the trackbar and mounts and move it to the housing.I probably could have been more clear. I am not implying that a hydro assist causes any of that. I just dont like the idea of adding hydro steering power against little outers because Ive seen enough breakage (usually due to bounce, jump, misaligned steering, WOT, driver error, etc) . Few things are as fun as when a wheeler in the group loses a wheel on the BusyWild (granted it was a CJ BTDT)
I dont think poorly of you or your motivations. I like you. We’ve met before.
Generally I just am for avoiding rabbit holes, especially if a bigger acle is already in the end game plan.The OP just wanted his track bar to not bind. If he’s binding, hydro steer isnt going to change that.
My motivation is beyond simple, the more folks understand, the less we see misinformation and myths.
You are bothered by wheels that fell off, I'm bothered by trackbars that failed, and mounts ripped off. I've put lots of knuckles back onto inner C's. That's hand tools and a jack. If I don't have to get under a rig and weld shit back, I'm good with that.
Some folks achieve 12" travel, 6" up, 6" down with a Currie track bar, stock frame mount, and no binding. And they wheel trails as hard as a TJ on 35s can do.
So why does the OP need a double-shear track bar to achieve what seems to be less than 12" travel? Why is his track bar binding? Let's see the pictures and details.
So why does the OP need a double-shear track bar to achieve what seems to be less than 12" travel? Why is his track bar binding? Let's see the pictures and details.
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