Tennessee Red

[Woodrow]

Not sure about miles, but they now have 11 wheeling trips on them. I do drive it on the road around town in between trips but don't track mileage. 11 trips is approx 25 full days of tough wheeling.

So far they are holding up much better than normal ball joints which I was constantly having to change. The normal ball joints had 36" tires with 3.5" backspace and the BJE have been run with 38" tires with basically 2.25" of backspace so the BJE have the deck stacked against them and they have been holding up. The only issues I have had with the BJE is that the pins are installed in the bearing in the C with short nylon nuts and these nuts have come loose on the lower side. Only way to tighten these nuts is to pull the axle shaft which is a pain. The first time I just re-tightened them. The 2nd time I applied red loctite. Only have one trip on them since then so not sure if it is going to hold up.

So far, I have been happy with them. They got the deck stacked against them with poor geometry and they are holding up, no wear at all, with just that nut loosening issue.

Is the C on your HP44 the same as a stock TJ with respect to the ball joint?

 

[gasiorv]

Is the C on your HP44 the same as a stock TJ with respect to the ball joint?

Yes, with respect to ball joints it is the same.

 

[Woodrow]

Yes, with respect to ball joints it is the same.

Thanks for the follow-up. I can see myself heading that direction. Let us know how the red locktite does on those nuts, please. Getting the RCV shafts in and out is a hassle.

 

[taylormade73]

Not sure about miles, but they now have 11 wheeling trips on them. I do drive it on the road around town in between trips but don't track mileage. 11 trips is approx 25 full days of tough wheeling.

So far they are holding up much better than normal ball joints which I was constantly having to change. The normal ball joints had 36" tires with 3.5" backspace and the BJE have been run with 38" tires with basically 2.25" of backspace so the BJE have the deck stacked against them and they have been holding up. The only issues I have had with the BJE is that the pins are installed in the bearing in the C with short nylon nuts and these nuts have come loose on the lower side. Only way to tighten these nuts is to pull the axle shaft which is a pain. The first time I just re-tightened them. The 2nd time I applied red loctite. Only have one trip on them since then so not sure if it is going to hold up.

So far, I have been happy with them. They got the deck stacked against them with poor geometry and they are holding up, no wear at all, with just that nut loosening issue.

Thanks for the feedback, Vic. I’ve been interested in hearing how they hold up over time. They are not cheap, especially now and wouldn’t want to have to rebuild often. Hope to see more experiences from others with respect to their longevity.

Pondering going to 37’s and being cheap using what I have now (RJ44 front and RJ60 semi-float rear). I’m thinking about using these until I am ready to spend money on a proper front axle, which at that point will involve a proper rear axle and go to 40’s and all that comes with them.

Right now, I’m not there yet.

 

[Wildman]

Thanks for the feedback, Vic. I’ve been interested in hearing how they hold up over time. They are not cheap, especially now and wouldn’t want to have to rebuild often. Hope to see more experiences from others with respect to their longevity.

Pondering going to 37’s and being cheap using what I have now (RJ44 front and RJ60 semi-float rear). I’m thinking about using these until I am ready to spend money on a proper front axle, which at that point will involve a proper rear axle and go to 40’s and all that comes with them.

Right now, I’m not there yet.

Recue 6 got the first TJ style BJD from American Iron.

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/american-iron-offroad-balljoint-deletes.41103/#post-684185

My Ford HP44 is different but I've got them on mine too.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Thanks for the feedback, Vic. I’ve been interested in hearing how they hold up over time. They are not cheap, especially now and wouldn’t want to have to rebuild often. Hope to see more experiences from others with respect to their longevity.

Pondering going to 37’s and being cheap using what I have now (RJ44 front and RJ60 semi-float rear). I’m thinking about using these until I am ready to spend money on a proper front axle, which at that point will involve a proper rear axle and go to 40’s and all that comes with them.

Right now, I’m not there yet.

Recue 6 got the first TJ style BJD from American Iron.

https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/american-iron-offroad-balljoint-deletes.41103/#post-684185

My Ford HP44 is different but I've got them on mine too.

I run those on my '60 up front, and am happy with them. They are beefy.

 

[Woodrow]

I run those on my '60 up front, and am happy with them. They are beefy.

I recall it was a tight squeeze and required a little modification. The same nut Victor was referring to, I think?

 

[NashvilleTJ]

I recall it was a tight squeeze and required a little modification. The same nut Victor was referring to, I think?

Correct.

 

[gasiorv]

Thanks for the feedback, Vic. I’ve been interested in hearing how they hold up over time. They are not cheap, especially now and wouldn’t want to have to rebuild often. Hope to see more experiences from others with respect to their longevity.

Pondering going to 37’s and being cheap using what I have now (RJ44 front and RJ60 semi-float rear). I’m thinking about using these until I am ready to spend money on a proper front axle, which at that point will involve a proper rear axle and go to 40’s and all that comes with them.

Right now, I’m not there yet.

The 37" tire is the devil in disguise. With 37" tires you have to stay with the smaller axles because the tires do not provide enough clearance to keep the diffs from digging when in the rutted out trails or keep them up and out of the rocks. AND unfortunately, the small axles (Dana 44) which allows for the clearance required with the 37" don't provide the required strength with the 37". Then couple that with TJ width and the sacrifices that you have to make with scrub radius, backspacing, etc... which then exaggerates the issues with the weaker Ball Joints, Unit Bearings, etc.... It puts you into the constant maintenance zone. If you understand that and are willing to sacrifice some of the proper geometry and push those tires out with wheel spacers or less backspaced wheels it is a fun middle area. A RJ44 and RJ60 with 37"s on an LJ is pretty sweet (it definitely looks sweet), it is just not optimal and will take maintenance, even with RCVs, BJE, Hydro assist, etc... you are going to be constantly tweaking and then fixing something. You will definitely get a years' worth of driving around town and a weeklong Moab type wheeling trip out of it with no issues, throw in a few local overland type trips and you are still good to go. But you throw in a once a month pounding in the rocks and then add in some west coast type traction you are looking at maintenance after every wheeling trip. Worth it? It is to me at this point, but to me wheeling is the hobby, not the TJ itself.

When you go to the "proper" axles to run the bigger tires, you have to step up to 40" minimum (actually getting bigger here in the east due to ruts and undercuts) so you have to basically build for 42"-43" tires. That opens up a new can of worms. A can worth considering but a can just the same.

I agree with the statement that 35" tires are what you "should" stay at with the TJ width and style axles; however, due to the ruts, holes between rocks, and undercuts in the east and due to the rocks and trails that I want to run, they are not practical for me or others like me. Unfortunately, I don't have the funding nor the current ability to build what is optimal, so I have to settle in the constant mtc zone. Yes, there is a cost for constant maintenance which in the long run may outweigh the cost of just upgrading to the larger tires and big axles or outweigh the cost of just buying a buggy. There is even a bigger cost in actually breaking on the trail and cutting a trip short. However, it is a cost that I am able and willing to pay at this time; I can easily justify buying a $450 part this month and a $300 part twon months from now, but it would be hard to dump $25K up front.

Anyway, all of that just to say. Don't be afraid of the 37s on your current axles, you will most likely have to provide a little more clearance with Hi-lines and by spacing the wheels out and you have to understand that they come with sacrifices and issues. But going to 37s is not the end of the world as you know it and it makes an LJ with a 4" lift look pretty damn sweet.

 

[gasiorv]

I recall it was a tight squeeze and required a little modification. The same nut Victor was referring to, I think?

I had to also grind down a 1-1/6" socket in order to get it to fit down into the area to tighten the nut. It is a tight squeeze on the Dana 44.

 

[JMT]

The 37" tire is the devil in disguise. With 37" tires you have to stay with the smaller axles because the tires do not provide enough clearance to keep the diffs from digging when in the rutted out trails or keep them up and out of the rocks. AND unfortunately, the small axles (Dana 44) which allows for the clearance required with the 37" don't provide the required strength with the 37". Then couple that with TJ width and the sacrifices that you have to make with scrub radius, backspacing, etc... which then exaggerates the issues with the weaker Ball Joints, Unit Bearings, etc.... It puts you into the constant maintenance zone. If you understand that and are willing to sacrifice some of the proper geometry and push those tires out with wheel spacers or less backspaced wheels it is a fun middle area. A RJ44 and RJ60 with 37"s on an LJ is pretty sweet (it definitely looks sweet), it is just not optimal and will take maintenance, even with RCVs, BJE, Hydro assist, etc... you are going to be constantly tweaking and then fixing something. You will definitely get a years' worth of driving around town and a weeklong Moab type wheeling trip out of it with no issues, throw in a few local overland type trips and you are still good to go. But you throw in a once a month pounding in the rocks and then add in some west coast type traction you are looking at maintenance after every wheeling trip. Worth it? It is to me at this point, but to me wheeling is the hobby, not the TJ itself.

When you go to the "proper" axles to run the bigger tires, you have to step up to 40" minimum (actually getting bigger here in the east due to ruts and undercuts) so you have to basically build for 42"-43" tires. That opens up a new can of worms. A can worth considering but a can just the same.

I agree with the statement that 35" tires are what you "should" stay at with the TJ width and style axles; however, due to the ruts, holes between rocks, and undercuts in the east and due to the rocks and trails that I want to run, they are not practical for me or others like me. Unfortunately, I don't have the funding nor the current ability to build what is optimal, so I have to settle in the constant mtc zone. Yes, there is a cost for constant maintenance which in the long run may outweigh the cost of just upgrading to the larger tires and big axles or outweigh the cost of just buying a buggy. There is even a bigger cost in actually breaking on the trail and cutting a trip short. However, it is a cost that I am able and willing to pay at this time; I can easily justify buying a $450 part this month and a $300 part twon months from now, but it would be hard to dump $25K up front.

Anyway, all of that just to say. Don't be afraid of the 37s on your current axles, you will most likely have to provide a little more clearance with Hi-lines and by spacing the wheels out and you have to understand that they come with sacrifices and issues. But going to 37s is not the end of the world as you know it and it makes an LJ with a 4" lift look pretty damn sweet.

This is great commentary. I’m planning to make these sacrifices till I can get where I can buy the right axles or just ride out a maintenance schedule. Yes, I’ve had a bit of fear settling in on this decision, but it’s what I want and am willing to do. I don’t get to wheel hard as much as you. BJE’s, BBK, and RCV’s in my future. BBK first. Then I can wheel it day of. Soon! Best explanation I’ve read.

 

[Wildman]

I wonder if instead of bigger axles if you're happy with the 38" tires if you could build a HP44 with Ford (old school) type "C" ? But since your current axle isn't wide enough you'd either have to retube or start with a new axle.

 

[gasiorv]

I am in no hurry and like being small and on my current axles. But I am also keeping my eyes open. If I come across a good set of axles that someone is pulling out and selling for a good deal I will probably scoop them up and then start saving for everything else that will go along with the install.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

I am in no hurry and like being small and on my current axles. But I am also keeping my eyes open. If I come across a good set of axles that someone is pulling out and selling for a good deal I will probably scoop them up and then start saving for everything else that will go along with the install.

Interested in a nice sissy-14-bolt?

 

[Wildman]

I am in no hurry and like being small and on my current axles. But I am also keeping my eyes open. If I come across a good set of axles that someone is pulling out and selling for a good deal I will probably scoop them up and then start saving for everything else that will go along with the install.

Same here... Just came across a Ford HP60 narrowed to 65" WMS with 5.38 gears and a lunchbox locker for $1400. Might see if I can get it for a little less.

 

[bty34]

If you put a tape on your rear 60, it doesn't hang down and further than a standard TJ 44.

Junkyard 60s are a different story, but swapping to a front 44 gives up the same amount of clearance as a RJ60.

 

[gasiorv]

Seems like I have been involved in several conversations on stretching the rear here lately and I have been planning on doing it for some time (I actually got the frame pieces to accomplish the splice back in Mar or Apr of this year and they have just been sitting on my shelf). Anyway, after our wheeling trip in Nov, I had a conversation with my normal wheeling friends and due to holidays and family stuff most of them said that they would not be able to wheel again until January. So that gave me a 6 week window of no wheeling opportunities. Now I just needed to find time in the garage. Well, my wife left to visit her sister in east TN last Tuesday and I stayed home to be with our son for Thanksgiving. Lucky for me, my wife would rather her son not be alone even though I don't think he really cares. Anyway, I now had a window to tackle the rear stretch.

I went into this with the following mindset:
1. Try to salvage as much breakover angle as possible, which meant to maintain the current tire to frame side control arm distance. I didn't want to leave the brackets at the same location and extend the control arm lengths because this would put the parts that hang down closer to the middle and reduce the breakover angle. This also allowed me to utilize my current control arms.
2. I wanted to greatly improve my departure angle, so I wanted the tires to be at or slightly past the rear bumper. I also wanted to raise the rear bumper if possible.
3. I am not a welder by trade and I don't have any formal welding training, so I am always fearful of my ability, so make sure it is a good design that offers as much as strength as possible, I also don't care about looks. So that meant external splice members, because the distance (d) is squared.
4. Keep the cost down and reuse as much stuff that I already had (so control arms, antirock, metal that I had laying around, no new tools, etc....).
5. Try to get it done in minimal amount of time as possible. I have other obligations, especially during the holidays, I also have other hobbies that I don't want to suffer.

I already had a genright 4 link control arm brackets installed in the rear and my current skills, ability, and tools really didn't have me cutting them off and reusing them. I could have cut the frame just in front of the brackets and then made my splice there, and that was doable, but not with my ability, it would have taken more precision and skill to fab all the parts. So I decided to not waste the time and energy to remove them and just leave them installed where they were and just cut off the actual lower brackets so they didn't hang down. Then purchase a new set of GR control arm brackets ($149 for the weld your own version) and install them.

I also wanted to resuse my rear bumper and I did not want the torque box and bumper to stick out as much as it did. That meant relocating the rear body mounts.

With all of that in mind. I decided to cut the frame approx 4" behind the current GR bracket which gave me 3.5" of straight frame on both sides for the splice. I would then utilize the new GR bracket at the fwd cut/splice location as part of the splice itself. That would put the new GR bracket and control arm brackets approx 7.5" aft of the existing locations and thus I would add a 7.5" splice section and move the rear axle 7.5" and thus the control arm lengths would stay the same and the relation of the brackets to tire would stay the same.

Conceptual plan in place. I waved as my wife pulled away in the Subaru tuesday morning and immediately started the actual process.

Cutting the frame and removing it was actually super easy. Fabbing up the splice pieces was also very easy. The body mounts had me thinking for some time. I basically had to relocate the aft two body mounts and I had to figure out a way to pick up the two bed mounts which now.

Bed mounts - With the 7.5" stretch the actual bed mounts were right in line with the spring perches and that reduced the space to add a cross member. So I added a 1-3/4" tube just in front of the spring perches and then added the mounts off of that tube.


Aft mounts - I relocated them to the aft channel, which is right in front of the torque box. When I cut the outer torque boxes off, I salvaged the nut plate and cut a slot and fished them up into the channel and then tacked them in place. I cantilevered the brackets off the frame and done. For the actual torque box, I cut it similar to the existing end which allowed me to bend over the aft side and close off the box and then I welded the box shut.

I spliced in my existing bumper and moved it up approx 5/8" closer to the body.

Cycling the axle with no tires installed had the upper control arm contacting the body and the added 1-3/4 tube at the same time that my upper axle side control arms also touched the body. So I had to add a little bump stop, was hoping not too, I could probably come up with solutions for each of those contact points, but with all three at the same time I took it as a sign to just add the 1/2" of bump and keep going.

Installed the tires with springs to verify my ride height so I could then measure for new drive shaft and also figure out the antirock install. First look and I like it!

At this point it was Thursday night and I have basically worked three days in the garage. I decided to stop and go Mt Biking for two days to try and find a spark and help motiviate me to get into shape. So I headed down to Alabama and rode Fri at Oak Mtn in Birmingham and Tannehill in Bessemer on Saturday.

Home Saturday night so I could tackle the antirock on Sunday, my goal was to get it on the ground by Sunday night.

Tires back off and I figured out the antirock.

Back on the ground with springs, shocks, and antirock is where it sits today.

I still need to figure out a bunch of stuff (brake line, parking brake cables, rear tail lights, and tailgate mount, etc....) but progress was made. Probably won't work on it again for a few weeks, Wife says I need to help get all the xmas decorations up this week and weekend. My oldest son is coming home for a few weeks starting Dec 13 and she wants everything done before that.

 

[Apparition]

Looks great Victor.

 

[gasiorv]

This is how much mud/dirt was in the frame. But luckily no rust!

 

[gasiorv]

Looks great Victor.

Thanks. I had to come to work this morning to get a rest. Moving all that stuff around by myself had me using muscles that haven't been used in a long time and then getting yourself into position to grind and weld under the jeep can put a toll on weak abs.