Long arm advantage question

[gasiorv]

Since this post has already gone sideways, I don't feel bad about asking a slightly off topic question which is somewhat relevant to the topic.

Ignoring the constraints of the TJ and assuming one has the means, ability, and want to modify the body and/or frame to allow for proper geometry and travel. Is it better to have a longer arm with a flatter angle which will provide a larger radius for the wheel to travel in compared to a shorter arm with a steep angle and smaller radius? Assume that IC is accounted for, etc... and I understand this is a TJ forum and thus the constraints of the tub and frame are normally considered in the conversation but request that this be ignored for my question.

 

[mrblaine]

Since this post has already gone sideways, I don't feel bad about asking a slightly off topic question which is somewhat relevant to the topic.

Ignoring the constraints of the TJ and assuming one has the means, ability, and want to modify the body and/or frame to allow for proper geometry and travel. Is it better to have a longer arm with a flatter angle which will provide a larger radius for the wheel to travel in compared to a shorter arm with a steep angle and smaller radius? Assume that IC is accounted for, etc... and I understand this is a TJ forum and thus the constraints of the tub and frame are normally considered in the conversation but request that this be ignored for my question.

At what lift height?

 

[Blackjack]

Based on what I've seen so far, it also appears that they have completely overlooked that every inch of belly height you get rid of with a raised belly skid is equivalent to adding 2" to tire height. Seems to me the builds are their own worst enemy. Add so much lift height that every little wiggle makes it seem like you are going to fall over and then try to add back in some "stability" with a whole bunch of band-aids. Did I miss anything?

Interestingly enough for a lot of "streetable" builds up here breakover angle is not a high priority. Part of this is the places you are most likely to turtle are relatively soft so as long as the belly is smooth it gets you by. Tire size is always the first consideration and how to make them fit with the least effort seems to be the next priority. If you go to any of the "shops" up here they are going to pedal a long arm kit because that is the easy(and most profitable) way out. So no you did not miss a thing.

 

[gasiorv]

4" SL. 1.25" BL (but modification of tub to allow for proper geometry is not outside realm) and a relatively flat belly.

 

[AndyG]

Interestingly enough for a lot of "streetable" builds up here breakover angle is not a high priority. Part of this is the places you are most likely to turtle are relatively soft so as long as the belly is smooth it gets you by. Tire size is always the first consideration and how to make them fit with the least effort seems to be the next priority. If you go to any of the "shops" up here they are going to pedal a long arm kit because that is the easy(and most profitable) way out. So no you did not miss a thing.

I love the Internet.

When Jerry hits like I like to go back and hit like ....Then casually drop his name around my wife three or four times that evening....Yeah me and Jerry we really see eye to eye on this Jeep stuff...He’s a pretty big deal in the jeep world babe, practically has lockers on a golf cart.....

 

[mrblaine]

4" SL. 1.25" BL (but modification of tub to allow for proper geometry is not outside realm) and a relatively flat belly.

Within those parameters, not much benefit.

 

[Paradiddle]

Interestingly enough for a lot of "streetable" builds up here breakover angle is not a high priority. Part of this is the places you are most likely to turtle are relatively soft so as long as the belly is smooth it gets you by. Tire size is always the first consideration and how to make them fit with the least effort seems to be the next priority. If you go to any of the "shops" up here they are going to pedal a long arm kit because that is the easy(and most profitable) way out. So no you did not miss a thing.

Context and geography do make a difference as to what shops will recommend.

 

[Blackjack]

The ATK car is a registered Jeepspeed car. Jeepspeed and Ultra4 are two totally different disciplines.

I also pointed out that the photo was an anecdote showing that there is an application where long arms are effective, contrary to the forums belief. That car might struggle to rock crawl but it looks to be damned good at running whoops at speed.

There is an argument for ”longer” arms but anything longer than a mid arm either sacrifices performance or requires serious surgery to the tub da chassis that is not practical for most.

A long arm kit may be the most cost-effective option for OP to stabilize a jeep lifted 7 fucking inches. He should just acknowledge that type of build will have certain drawbacks and compromises.

“Stabilize “ is definitely the incorrect term to be using here. The best you are doing with a bolt on long arm is flattening the arm angles out enough so it drives more like a Jeep and less like a Kmart shopping cart. To really stabilize things you have modify your center of gravity to make up for the increased chassis height and/or shock and sway bar improvements.

Personally I would lower it and put it on wider axles. Would eliminate alot of this bickering.

It is a nice thought but unless you are building a trailer queen we have pretty tough tire coverage laws to adhere to.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

It is a nice thought but unless you are building a trailer queen we have pretty tough tire coverage laws to adhere to.

From all the gravel roads up there?

 

[AndyG]

@AndyG, you need to have your own identity and Stop living off @Jerry Bransford's many accomplishments. Return his avatar and put your wheel off avatar with the duck of death on your bumper. Reality is Truth.

Well I was always told the truth hurts. I’m very happy not being me. So there.

If somebody stole my identity they would probably give it back.

 

[AndyG]

Context and geography do make a difference as to what shops will recommend.

There’s a lot of truth to that in many industries....Regional trends abound.

It’s a combination of guys going from shop to shop and market penetration by manufacturers.

It seems like we get a very healthy viewpoint from out of Southern California....But thankfully parts can be shipped anywhere.

 

[Blackjack]

I’ve had both long and short arm set ups- arms are no more stable than the connection, period. I only run short arms now.

The “lesser arc” theory is laughable, as axle up and down travel at road speed is minimal.

The shocks, sway bars, links, and all connections, including the control arms and track bars (track bars are control arms) and sidewall tire flex, are the rigs primary players of stability. Springs not so much.

As long as you stay at 4.5 inch lift or less you are correct the change in arc is not a significant issue. Once you get past that it begins to be a problem that seems to compound itself each inch over you go.

 

[AndyG]

As long as you stay at 4.5 inch lift or less you are correct the change in arc is not a significant issue. Once you get past that it begins to be a problem that seems to compound itself each inch over you go.

Yes that makes sense.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

@AndyG Return his avatar and put your wheel off avatar with the duck of death on your bumper. Reality is Truth.

Andy pays me an exorbitant annual licensing fee for unlimited use of that avatar. The day he stops paying is the day his avatar gets changed to a pink pimpmobile YJ with 22" spinners.

 

[ALASKANMADMAN]

You are doing a whole lot of projecting. Blackjack's responses are entirely consistent with mine. The significant difference is that Blackjack entered into this after angry Alaska guy's incoherent series of questions got sorted out.

Angry Alaska guy is upset because he is incapable of recognizing the confusion he created, which required that he be corraled so that something useful could come of this. He got that. The most offensive aspect of this is him using his health as justification for his vitriolic obstinance to actually learning something about a topic he wants to know more about.

You are kinda special

While I have a sincere appreciation for your medical conditions, I do wish that being a giant fucking snowflake was NOT a consequence of that.

snowflake this sunshine

I’ve had both long and short arm set ups- arms are no more stable than the connection, period. I only run short arms now.

The “lesser arc” theory is laughable, as axle up and down travel at road speed is minimal.

The shocks, sway bars, links, and all connections, including the control arms and track bars (track bars are control arms) and sidewall tire flex, are the rigs primary players of stability. Springs not so much.

Good too hear information from someone who has tried both. Thank you VERY much.

 

[ALASKANMADMAN]

I tried. I tried really hard to do that.

Pfffffffft tried my ass lol His answer was right on point. Plain and to the point.

 

[gasiorv]

Is there any benefit to the longer and flatter arms (with larger radius and being in a higher point of the radius at ride height) when pushing the tire into and climbing a vertical flat or slightly undercut rock wall? Again, ignoring the confines of the current frame, steering, etc... and assuming one has means, ability, and want to modify the frame and tub. And if so would those longer arms have any other benefit?

 

[jjvw]

Pfffffffft tried my ass lol His answer was right on point. Plain and to the point.

Correct. Did you also want a hug and a pet on the head?

 

[ALASKANMADMAN]

Correct. Did you also want a hug and a pet on the head?
View attachment 495476

You try to hard

 

[jjvw]

You try to hard

Go spend time with your kids.