Johnny Joint Clunk / Front End Clunk

[MaximusLJR06]

Re-reading your original post, looks like these are Savvy arms from 2 years ago. I ordered my Savvy kit in Aug 2020 and it came with the hardware they could get at the time (COVID) - but wasn't right for thread engagement, and my original hardware look like yours.

Here is the original nuts engaging the original bolts:

View attachment 479015

View attachment 479016

You'll note your kit, like these pics, show a nylocs and extra-thick washers. You want at least 2 full threads to consider a bolt/nut fully engaged.

I emailed Gerald and he shipped out new nuts & washers (at no cost) that they include these days (and apparently before the COVID inventory-restricting days). I let him know I did not feel safe with my family in this Jeep without proper thread engagement. Despite other Savvy issues on availability (these days) and no stickers (contact Jerry), Gerald was very responsive on my concerns!

View attachment 479017

Much thinner (more typical) washers & non-nylon lock nuts resulted in much better thread engagement!

Recommend you reach out to Gerald (gman savvyoffroad.com) for a new set of washers & nuts.

If you didn't put in BMB alignment slot fillers - recommend those too. (I had a HP Dana 30 & them put in new lowers - so didn't have an alignment slot to concern myself with).

Can't say it's your issue but it is a potential future problem.

So mine did come with the super thick washers and nylocs nuts and ever since I installed them I’ve always been pretty skeptical of the setup. The bolts to me all seemed like they should have been 1/4” longer.

The front lowers already have the BMB washers as well. These are even thicker than the supplied washers, so they have less engagement than the rest. I’ll have to shoot Gerald an email and see what he says.

I can't keep threads straight... lol. I'm still concerned on using those thick washers and nylocs - not enough thread engagement. May not be this new clunk but I don't want a future failed of a nut twisting off for anyone... That's what cause me to reach out to Gerald and the new setup has much better thread engagement.

Definitely the same clunk as before. As the week in the Mts went on, the clunk came back occasionally and by the end of the week was back how it was. I retorqued to 150 yesterday but haven’t driven since to verify it’s gone again.

My bolts all have at least a few threads past the nut and I use Stover type (all metal with deformed thread) locknuts.

You're sure the bolt is class 10.9? And make sure you're using the correct torque specs. In addition to size and strength class, they vary based on thread pitch and whether the threads are lubricated. If it's been over-torqued, it's cooked and needs to be replaced.

They are whatever bolts savvy supplied at the time. Could 150 be too much for it? That’s the highest my to wrench goes, so that’s what I did yesterday on it.

 

[Mike_H]

150 ft lbs? That's an awful lot of torque for a 9/16 bolt (I assume we're talking lower control arm).

This chart from Bolt depot says 130 for a fine thread, 9/16" Ø bolt. They don't say if that is for a bolt that will be installed and left alone or one that will be installed and removed mulitple times (that changes the torque spec too).

You may have stretched it too much and ruin the bolt or nut (plastic deformation). I'd recommend getting some new ones. Also, get some prevailing torque nuts. Those nylocks are junk. Type C are much more "locking" than a nylock

https://www.boltdepot.com/Product-Details.aspx?product=8792

 

[freedom_in_4low]

So mine did come with the super thick washers and nylocs nuts and ever since I installed them I’ve always been pretty skeptical of the setup. The bolts to me all seemed like they should have been 1/4” longer.

The front lowers already have the BMB washers as well. These are even thicker than the supplied washers, so they have less engagement than the rest. I’ll have to shoot Gerald an email and see what he says.



Definitely the same clunk as before. As the week in the Mts went on, the clunk came back occasionally and by the end of the week was back how it was. I retorqued to 150 yesterday but haven’t driven since to verify it’s gone again.



They are whatever bolts savvy supplied at the time. Could 150 be too much for it? That’s the highest my to wrench goes, so that’s what I did yesterday on it.

Ah, I forget the Savvy part, so they should be 9/16 grade 8, not a M14 class 10.

But yeah, 150 is probably too much...unless the bolt and nut were completely bone dry (no lubrication at all) when torqued. And I can't say for sure if the zinc plating counts as lubrication even without antisieze...there's quite a bit that goes into determining appropriate fastener torque.

Did Savvy provide the Nylocks? That's new to me, mine all came with prevailing torque nuts.

The good news is 9/16 hardware is relatively easy to find. I had to get some M12 stuff the other day and it was a royal PITA getting bolt and nut in the right class and and thread pitch.

 

[MaximusLJR06]

150 ft lbs? That's an awful lot of torque for a 9/16 bolt (I assume we're talking lower control arm).

This chart from Bolt depot says 130 for a fine thread, 9/16" Ø bolt. They don't say if that is for a bolt that will be installed and left alone or one that will be installed and removed mulitple times (that changes the torque spec too).

View attachment 479095

You may have stretched it too much and ruin the bolt or nut (plastic deformation). I'd recommend getting some new ones. Also, get some prevailing torque nuts. Those nylocks are junk. Type C are much more "locking" than a nylock

https://www.boltdepot.com/Product-Details.aspx?product=8792

Thanks for the link to for the nuts. I think I’m going to look at replacing all the nuts and bolts for all of them at this point. Do you know off hand what size the upper bolts are?

Ah, I forget the Savvy part, so they should be 9/16 grade 8, not a M14 class 10.

But yeah, 150 is probably too much...unless the bolt and nut were completely bone dry (no lubrication at all) when torqued. And I can't say for sure if the zinc plating counts as lubrication even without antisieze...there's quite a bit that goes into determining appropriate fastener torque.

Did Savvy provide the Nylocks? That's new to me, mine all came with prevailing torque nuts.

The good news is 9/16 hardware is relatively easy to find. I had to get some M12 stuff the other day and it was a royal PITA getting bolt and nut in the right class and and thread pitch.

They did come with the Nylocks.

Any of you guys have the size for all the bolts on the controls arms so I know which to order the first time around.

 

[Mike_H]

The uppers are 7/16-20. I don't know the lengths off hand, but you can measure yours quick. The prevailing torque nut will be a thinner profile than the Nylock and you might be good on length.

BTW, those bolts don't really have to protrude past the nut. You have full thread engagement on the hardware you have. Nylocks are a full nut, with a nylon "bushing" formed into the cap. The nylon is smaller diameter than the bolt, and you cut threads when you install it. That's what provides the friction to prevent loosening...but all it really does is prevent the nut from spinning off easily. So, with your bolt being that close to the end of the nylock nut, you have full engagement of the bolt threads.

The REAL way a bolt and nut don't loosen is due to the "stretch" of the bolt. That is why torque is important. When you torque a nut, the bolt stretches (like a spring) and the force trying to pull the bolt back to its normal length creates a bunch of friction in the threads and the faying surfaces...but mostly the threads. If you overtorque the bolt, it goes into plastic deformation...which means you've overstretched the "spring" and permanently lengthened the bolt. When the bolt lengthens, you lose friction in the threads and you lose control of the joint. If you've stretched the bolt and continue to over torque it (as I assuming your problem is) eventually you'll get to the ultimate yield strength of the bolt and it will snap. I'd guess you're one more "tightening" sequence away from that.

 

[FarFire70]

So mine did come with the super thick washers and nylocs nuts and ever since I installed them I’ve always been pretty skeptical of the setup. The bolts to me all seemed like they should have been 1/4” longer.

Contact Gerald. Get it right.

——

Lowers: 90 ft. lbs

Uppers: 50 ft. lbs

Do NOT use the OEM torque on Savvy/Currie Bolts. Way too high for the bolt.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Thanks for the link to for the nuts. I think I’m going to look at replacing all the nuts and bolts for all of them at this point. Do you know off hand what size the upper bolts are?



They did come with the Nylocks.

Any of you guys have the size for all the bolts on the controls arms so I know which to order the first time around.

They're just measured by length from the bottom of the head to the tip.

Contact Gerald. Get it right.

——

Lowers: 90 ft. lbs

Uppers: 50 ft. lbs

Do NOT use the OEM torque on Savvy/Currie Bolts. Way too high for the bolt.

His look to be standard, solid grade 8 bolts. I would think the recommendation your citing is specific to the greasable bolts with a grease channel running through them.

 

[FarFire70]

His look to be standard, solid grade 8 bolts. I would think the recommendation your citing is specific to the greasable bolts with a grease channel running through them.

Nothing to do with the bolts. Thick washers & nylocs are not standard for Savvy.

Gerald send me new kit — It was new washers and nuts, not bolts. I re-used the standard (non-greasable) bolts I had from the original 2020 shipment.

 

[freedom_in_4low]

Nothing to do with the bolts. Thick washers & nylocs are not standard for Savvy.

Gerald send me new kit — It was new washers and nuts, not bolts. I re-used the standard (non-greasable) bolts I had from the original 2020 shipment.

How does the nyloc and washer impact the torque specification of the bolt?

 

[FarFire70]

How does the nyloc and washer impact the torque specification of the bolt?

Wasn't commenting on the torque spec changing with these parts. My concern is thread engagement being a potential for the nut to loosen over time.

 

[MikeE024]

I retorqued all the control arm bolts 2 weeks ago when i installed the new currie track bars. None of them were loose.

Fwiw, I have a clunk that happens only when going less than 20mph in turns. Still haven’t solved the issue.

Track bar is tight. Will tighten the CAs tomorrow since I didn’t do it today. Tightened up the PSC steering box a little which reduced play but the clunk remains.

I have the currectlync, ball joints are fairly new, and have Yukon manual hubs so I don’t think it’s a differential or front driveshaft problem.

Going to order a new battery hold-down bracket per @SkylinesSuck recommendation since I found mine partially cracked recently.

My rig also drives well on the highway. Hope you solve the issue.

 

[MikeE024]

The REAL way a bolt and nut don't loosen is due to the "stretch" of the bolt. That is why torque is important. When you torque a nut, the bolt stretches (like a spring) and the force trying to pull the bolt back to its normal length creates a bunch of friction in the threads and the faying surfaces...but mostly the threads. If you overtorque the bolt, it goes into plastic deformation...which means you've overstretched the "spring" and permanently lengthened the bolt. When the bolt lengthens, you lose friction in the threads and you lose control of the joint. If you've stretched the bolt and continue to over torque it (as I assuming your problem is) eventually you'll get to the ultimate yield strength of the bolt and it will snap. I'd guess you're one more "tightening" sequence away from that.

Exactly, if you over-torque and plastically deform the fasteners, you no longer have proper elastic deformation to provide proper clamping force (bc the over stretched spring no longer tries to return home).

This is why I try to use a torque wrench whenever possible.

 

[MikeE024]

FWIW, my RJ CA fasteners were torqued to spec along with other items in October.

This time, I checked the fasteners with the frame on 10-ton jacks and the axles dangling a bit.

On the driver's side, the front-upper fastener to the frame was loose. I torqued it to 50 since I'm using the greaseable RJ fasteners. The other CA fasteners were tight.

We'll see if the clunk comes back.

Unrelated: I had greased the joints in October, but I greased them again since the CA's were at different angles with the axles dangling (in case it helped lubricate the joint). I stopped applying once the grease came out a bit from the side of the JJ.

Edit: Reputable forum members said that Currie told them the specs were 60 for the upper and 90 for the lower CA fasteners. Their install manual says 50/90, which RJ confirmed with me on the phone (but they said 60 would be fine lol). I'll bump it to around 60 if the fastener is loose during the next check. FWIW, Fastenal's torque chart says a plated 7/16 course thread's torque is 59 ft/lbs.

 

[MaximusLJR06]

No real update on my end yet. I will be ordering all new grade 8 fine thread hardware with prevailing torque nuts this weekend

 

[MikeE024]

No real update on my end yet. I will be ordering all new grade 8 fine thread hardware with prevailing torque nuts this weekend

Really hope the higher torque fasteners work for you. Pulling for you to fix this.

 

[MaximusLJR06]

Really hope the higher torque fasteners work for you. Pulling for you to fix this.

It should, I fixed my clunk by just tightened the bolts prior. Just seems I may have stretched my bolts previously with over torqueing them.

 

[MikeE024]

150 ft lbs? That's an awful lot of torque for a 9/16 bolt (I assume we're talking lower control arm).

This chart from Bolt depot says 130 for a fine thread, 9/16" Ø bolt. They don't say if that is for a bolt that will be installed and left alone or one that will be installed and removed mulitple times (that changes the torque spec too).

View attachment 479095

You may have stretched it too much and ruin the bolt or nut (plastic deformation). I'd recommend getting some new ones. Also, get some prevailing torque nuts. Those nylocks are junk. Type C are much more "locking" than a nylock

https://www.boltdepot.com/Product-Details.aspx?product=8792

FWIW, I like the Fastenal chart because it breaks down the torque values for dry, plated (or thread-locker), and lubricated.

Green = coarse
Red = fine
Column "K = .17" = zinc plating

Note: Had I not looked at the description for K=.17, I wouldn't have used those torques for plain fasteners with threadlocker (I would have used the lubricated column).

 

[MaximusLJR06]

So reviving this thread. Finally got around to getting new bolts and bought the Johnny joint disassembly tool to grease my joints.

Just finished reinstalling the problem arm and this is what I’m getting. Bolt it currently torqued to 125 ft LB. Anyone have any suggestions on how to stop this play? Already have the Blaine’s washers installed. The clanking is not the joint, it’s the other end of the arm hitting stuff. @mrblaine

 

[MaximusLJR06]

Are the black magic washers suppose to be welded in place by chance? Mine aren’t, just throwing ideas out there. I did see a post elsewhere that someone had a similar issue and they welded the Black Magic washers in place and it fixed it for them.

 

[SkylinesSuck]

No need to weld them. Could screw things up actually.