Electric window kit for a TJ question

[Cooper Smith]

Less cost, less weight, easier to deal with, better reliability. I leave the windows down on my Jeep during hot days here in Florida - when I go to roll them back up, I don't have to have the key or anything. Just walk up, roll them up, hit the lock lever, and close the door! If the vehicle doesn't have them, they can't break, and I don't have to pay for them or to maintain them. And that's just relatively simple power windows/locks. The other bullshit they put on vehicles now is worse - FAR worse. "Something else to break" as my late mother used to say. I really don't see the point of power windows - door locks I'll concede the point, although I'd just as soon not have them. My real pet peeve is power seats. My old MBZ has them, and I hate the damn things every time I drive that car!

Just take it...

 

[Zorba]

My TDI is pushbutton, if you don't step on the brake a picture of a foot stepping on a brake lights up on the dash in green. I actually like the PB start, It's the first thing I do when I get in, then by the time I've put on my seatbelt and closed the door it's already running plus it takes care of waiting for the glow plugs in cold weather.

Doesn't make much sense to me - I get in, switch the key on, put my seatbelt on and lock the doors. By then, the glo plugs have done their thing and I crank it. I don't see what problem pushbutton start has solved. If it were done right, it wouldn't be any more complicated than key start, but I'm sure there's 5 sensors, 2 motors, and 15 interlocks involved with it plus 377 lines of buggy, latency filled C code.

My old '74 MBZ 240D had a 4 position knob. In all the way was off, first detent was run, second detent to run the glowplugs (spring loaded), pull all the way out to engage the starter (stronger spring). It was fantastic! And not a microprocessor in sight!

Edit: I forgot to add - while the glo plugs are doing their thing, I'm also grind, grind, grind, grind, grinding the stupid power seat into position.

 

[Cooper Smith]

And not a microprocessor in sight!

I'm genuinely confused as to why you are so against them. What do you think like half the TJ's electrical system is?

 

[5632]

Zobra - Maybe it is time for you to go driving school and learn about the new technology.

 

[machoheadgames]

Less cost, less weight, easier to deal with, better reliability. I leave the windows down on my Jeep during hot days here in Florida - when I go to roll them back up, I don't have to have the key or anything. Just walk up, roll them up, hit the lock lever, and close the door! If the vehicle doesn't have them, they can't break, and I don't have to pay for them or to maintain them. And that's just relatively simple power windows/locks. The other bullshit they put on vehicles now is worse - FAR worse. "Something else to break" as my late mother used to say. I really don't see the point of power windows - door locks I'll concede the point, although I'd just as soon not have them. My real pet peeve is power seats. My old MBZ has them, and I hate the damn things every time I drive that car!

The power seats I definitely understand. Sometimes power seats are offered with more options for seat positions, and in that case I am semi okay with them. If they don’t offer any additional positioning adjustments, then all they are is a slower way to do what manual seats do, which I very much dislike. The other thing I’m okay with on power seats is if they have memory, but so many of them don’t and without memory it just seems completely pointless.

 

[MikekiM]

Well, similar to you not going out of your way to delete them, I also wouldn’t go out of my way to add them. Locks I don’t care as much about, especially on a Jeep. Windows would depend on if I had full doors obviously. But I’m mostly thinking genetically about other vehicles anyways. If I had a new jeep and had the doors on, then I probably wanted AC. If they’re off then it’s irrelevant.

On any vehicle that doesn’t have removable doors, no way I’d buy one without power locks/windows unless they were older and it was a hit or miss option, like my old Ranger. On a modern vehicle, I don’t think any even offer manual anymore but if they did, I would not go for that.

Full door windows take what.. three turns to full open the windows? If I can't turn the crank three times I have other problems to be attending to.

Given how often I see newer Jeeps buttoned up tight, windows closed, top and AC on, no wonder power windows and locks are pretty much mandatory. The world has gone soft. Many of these owners never take the doors off. MAYBE the Freedom tops come off a few times a season, but doors off is right up there with the never used lockers and sway bar disco.

Edit: I forgot to add - while the glo plugs are doing their thing, I'm also grind, grind, grind, grind, grinding the stupid power seat into position.

Why do you reset the seat position every time you get in?
My Wife's Cherokee has memory power seats. PITA for me because I never set the memory for myself so the few times I drive it I have to reset the seat. Other than that, I can't remember the last time I moved seat in my TJ.

 

[Zorba]

I'm genuinely confused as to why you are so against them. What do you think like half the TJ's electrical system is?

And I'm not happy about that, that's the one drawback to the TJ.

But - since you ask: I'm a retired computer/electronic tech and sometime engineer. I've lived and breathed microprocessors for decades, and made my living in that field. There are some things that a microprocessor can improve - and that can even be an engine when the darn thing is working correctly. Among other things, I worked for an industrial computer company for 13+ years - we were ALL about microprocessor control of darn near everything. I was also involved with this company's CAM setup, back in the day when CAM wasn't in wide use and we had to roll our own - blah, blah, blah.

But hanging a microprocessor on EVERYTHING, whether or not it makes any sense, much less economic sense, is stupid. In school, I was taught how cheap microprocessors would bring product costs down and reliability up. I'm sure that happened in some instances, but for the most part, all I see is increased costs and decreased reliability with little to no benefit to the end user. Coupled with that high-tech bugaboo, "Obsolescence" you have a disaster.

What is the #1 problem category discussed on this very forum? The damn computer and its sensors. The whole thing is a design nightmare because the tolerances between the computer and the sensors are too damn tight, nobody but MOPAR can make sensors that work reliably with the too-tight parameters in the computer. Trust me, I've BTDT - we had a similar problem with a certain product that was designed by a pretty much sheer genius of an engineer - but the design had zero tolerance for different batches of silicon, and had to be tweaked constantly when a new batch of chips came in because the guy was an idiot and ignored good design practices. For those who have a technical bent: It was an asynchronous digital state machine. You read that right - ASYNCHRONOUS. It depended on the propagation delay of each gate being constant in order to work. Switch silicon, different prop delay, failure. Guy got fired over it, even though it *was* a bitchin' design.

Getting back to our Jeep PCM: Thank Goddess for @Wranglerfix or the Jeep TJ community would be up shit creek without a paddle. Yet the replacements cost beaucoup bucks - so much for "cheap" microprocessors. I'm sure there's no more than $50 worth of parts in the thing, but Wranglerfix can't source parts for anywhere near that, hence his necessarily high prices. If I could walk into Autozone and get a new computer for $50 - the way it should be - it wouldn't be an issue.

One of my many hats I wore over the years, was firmware writing/debugging in assembly code for about 10 years. I see buggy firmware - aka "embedded software" in things all the time. Fairly often, I can even come up with a good guess as to why something is acting the way it is - a certain overthought microprocessor Coke machine that was constantly crashing comes to mind. The most common problem and I see it ALL the time: Latency, latency, latency, latency EVERYWHERE. The grumpy old man says "You have megabytes of memory, gigahertz of clock cycles, and you still have more latency than something I could have created in 1982 with a 2 megahertz processor with 8K of ROM and 4K of RAM!" I would have been FIRED FOR CAUSE if I had written code as bad as the crap I see every damn day. Grumpy old man says "Write the damn thing in assembly and you won't have such problems." - but in reality a good C compiler with a programmer that knows how to use it will be PLENTY good enough 99.99999% of the time, esp. with today's fast processors and tons of memory. Hell, I drove a new Ford pickup a few years ago, and there was latency in the HORN. Why was a critical safety item run through the computer in the first place? Somewhere around 300ms latency from what I could tell. If you're going to insist on controlling the horn with the computer, then you use a modern processor's "fast interrupt". The ISR (Interrupt Service Routine) pushes the accumulator onto the stack, loads it with the command byte to turn on the horn relay, outputs same to the horn control port, pops the original accumulator value back, and returns from interrupt. What the FUCK are you doing for 300ms? Doable on a 1 megaherz 6502 ca 1977. Probably doable on a 4040 or even 4004 ca 1972!

I am convinced that a lot of these code monkeys not only didn't pass CS-101, but that many of them never even saw the inside of a CS-101 class. I'm talking basic, simple mistakes and doing things everyone who has been in a CS-101 class more than 6 weeks knows NOT to do. And I've seen it even from some of the biggest names in the business. Don't open a file and then leave it open. Don't read from non-existent I/O ports. Balance your stack. Always initialize your hardware. Fucking test your code, then give it to somebody else to test - they'll find all kinds of problems that you never will. If you're programming in C, "malloc" your memory then fucking CHECK that you actually got the memory you need, don't ASSUME...

As for car features - unless "it" solves a real problem and is demonstrably better than "before", I'm not usually interested. None of the crap put on modern cars makes any sense whatsoever. I don't want to pay for it, I don't want to pay to maintain it (Like I just did with my wife's car, the "telematics" unit went out), and I certainly don't want to deal with the hassle during the "ownership experience". Like I said, roll up the window, push the lock button and close the door! No key needed, no waste of time using the key just to roll up the windows. Of course, that problem can be solved by throwing yet MORE expensive tech at it - which makes even less sense.

Sorry for the tome - you asked...

 

[Zorba]

Why do you reset the seat position every time you get in?
My Wife's Cherokee has memory power seats. PITA for me because I never set the memory for myself so the few times I drive it I have to reset the seat. Other than that, I can't remember the last time I moved seat in my TJ.

I have long legs, the seat needs to be back in order for me to get in/out. Then moved up to drive. Wife gets out without moving the seat back - I have to slide it back before I can get in!

 

[Apparition]

I have long legs, the seat needs to be back in order for me to get in/out. Then moved up to drive. Wife gets out without moving the seat back - I have to slide it back before I can get in!

You know some vehicles automatically move the seat to assist in getting in and out.

 

[Zorba]

You know some vehicles automatically move the seat to assist in getting in and out.

So throw more technology at a non-existent problem? Rather than grind, grind, grind, grind, grinding away to move the seat, pull the lever and pull! 10 times as fast, far easier, far cheaper, and more reliable too.

 

[cliffish]

And I'm not happy about that, that's the one drawback to the TJ.

But - since you ask: I'm a retired computer/electronic tech and sometime engineer. I've lived and breathed microprocessors for decades, and made my living in that field. There are some things that a microprocessor can improve - and that can even be an engine when the darn thing is working correctly. Among other things, I worked for an industrial computer company for 13+ years - we were ALL about microprocessor control of darn near everything. I was also involved with this company's CAM setup, back in the day when CAM wasn't in wide use and we had to roll our own - blah, blah, blah.

But hanging a microprocessor on EVERYTHING, whether or not it makes any sense, much less economic sense, is stupid. In school, I was taught how cheap microprocessors would bring product costs down and reliability up. I'm sure that happened in some instances, but for the most part, all I see is increased costs and decreased reliability with little to no benefit to the end user. Coupled with that high-tech bugaboo, "Obsolescence" you have a disaster.

What is the #1 problem category discussed on this very forum? The damn computer and its sensors. The whole thing is a design nightmare because the tolerances between the computer and the sensors are too damn tight, nobody but MOPAR can make sensors that work reliably with the too-tight parameters in the computer. Trust me, I've BTDT - we had a similar problem with a certain product that was designed by a pretty much sheer genius of an engineer - but the design had zero tolerance for different batches of silicon, and had to be tweaked constantly when a new batch of chips came in because the guy was an idiot and ignored good design practices. For those who have a technical bent: It was an asynchronous digital state machine. You read that right - ASYNCHRONOUS. It depended on the propagation delay of each gate being constant in order to work. Switch silicon, different prop delay, failure. Guy got fired over it, even though it *was* a bitchin' design.

Getting back to our Jeep PCM: Thank Goddess for @Wranglerfix or the Jeep TJ community would be up shit creek without a paddle. Yet the replacements cost beaucoup bucks - so much for "cheap" microprocessors. I'm sure there's no more than $50 worth of parts in the thing, but Wranglerfix can't source parts for anywhere near that, hence his necessarily high prices. If I could walk into Autozone and get a new computer for $50 - the way it should be - it wouldn't be an issue.

One of my many hats I wore over the years, was firmware writing/debugging in assembly code for about 10 years. I see buggy firmware - aka "embedded software" in things all the time. Fairly often, I can even come up with a good guess as to why something is acting the way it is - a certain overthought microprocessor Coke machine that was constantly crashing comes to mind. The most common problem and I see it ALL the time: Latency, latency, latency, latency EVERYWHERE. The grumpy old man says "You have megabytes of memory, gigahertz of clock cycles, and you still have more latency than something I could have created in 1982 with a 2 megahertz processor with 8K of ROM and 4K of RAM!" I would have been FIRED FOR CAUSE if I had written code as bad as the crap I see every damn day. Grumpy old man says "Write the damn thing in assembly and you won't have such problems." - but in reality a good C compiler with a programmer that knows how to use it will be PLENTY good enough 99.99999% of the time, esp. with today's fast processors and tons of memory. Hell, I drove a new Ford pickup a few years ago, and there was latency in the HORN. Why was a critical safety item run through the computer in the first place? Somewhere around 300ms latency from what I could tell. If you're going to insist on controlling the horn with the computer, then you use a modern processor's "fast interrupt". The ISR (Interrupt Service Routine) pushes the accumulator onto the stack, loads it with the command byte to turn on the horn relay, outputs same to the horn control port, pops the original accumulator value back, and returns from interrupt. What the FUCK are you doing for 300ms? Doable on a 1 megaherz 6502 ca 1977. Probably doable on a 4040 or even 4004 ca 1972!

I am convinced that a lot of these code monkeys not only didn't pass CS-101, but that many of them never even saw the inside of a CS-101 class. I'm talking basic, simple mistakes and doing things everyone who has been in a CS-101 class more than 6 weeks knows NOT to do. And I've seen it even from some of the biggest names in the business. Don't open a file and then leave it open. Don't read from non-existent I/O ports. Balance your stack. Always initialize your hardware. Fucking test your code, then give it to somebody else to test - they'll find all kinds of problems that you never will. If you're programming in C, "malloc" your memory then fucking CHECK that you actually got the memory you need, don't ASSUME...

As for car features - unless "it" solves a real problem and is demonstrably better than "before", I'm not usually interested. None of the crap put on modern cars makes any sense whatsoever. I don't want to pay for it, I don't want to pay to maintain it (Like I just did with my wife's car, the "telematics" unit went out), and I certainly don't want to deal with the hassle during the "ownership experience". Like I said, roll up the window, push the lock button and close the door! No key needed, no waste of time using the key just to roll up the windows. Of course, that problem can be solved by throwing yet MORE expensive tech at it - which makes even less sense.

Sorry for the tome - you asked...

And I see no need for cruise control, have it on most of my vehicles and just don't like the feel of it dictating my speed. BTW I drive near 30K miles per year.

 

[TurboTJ]

Wow, what a fire storm! Never thought something as innocuous as power windows and locks could raise so much emotion. But I’ll repeat, mine have been reliable and I like them. I have Molex connectors at the doors so they can be removed, admittedly rare occasion for me.

 

[TurboTJ]

Wow, what a fire storm! Never thought something as innocuous as power windows and locks could raise so much emotion. But I’ll repeat, mine have been reliable and I like them. I have Molex connectors at the doors so they can be removed, admittedly a rare occasion for me.

 

[Zorba]

And I see no need for cruise control, have it on most of my vehicles and just don't like the feel of it dictating my speed. BTW I drive near 30K miles per year.

That's the one item of "technology" that I insist upon. I don't know about adaptive - I'd probably consider it too expensive even if I ended up liking it (I have yet to try it).

 

[TheBoogieman]

Full door windows take what.. three turns to full open the windows? If I can't turn the crank three times I have other problems to be attending to.

Given how often I see newer Jeeps buttoned up tight, windows closed, top and AC on, no wonder power windows and locks are pretty much mandatory. The world has gone soft.

 

[Obi-Wan]

After reading this whole thread, all I can think about is Red Green's approach to the problem.

My engineering brain likes the convenience of tech in my new JLU, but it LOVES the absence of it in my TJ.

I also agree with @Zorba's statement of hanging a microprocessor on everything, whether or not it makes any sense, much less economic sense, is stupid. The horn delay example he gave reminded me of my past 2013 Ford Fusion. You couldn't bump the horn for a polite "chirp" because the delay was so bad. You had no choice but to hold the horn and wait to sound like an impatient asshat. I hated that fucking car.

On the opposite end of the argument, I reeeeeallly like my radar cruse control, rear camera and auto brake hold among other tech features in the JLU.

There's no reason we can't have and appreciate both.

 

[SkylinesSuck]

So.......... should we make a new thread about actual electric window options/tech and let you guys finish each other off in here or what?

 

[CreepinDeth]

OP asks a fair question, and for no reason, the purse swinging commences

 

[suicideking]

If you want electric windows, just sell it and buy a 2 door JK or JL.

 

[glowell222]

The man that invented the heated steering wheel is among my heroes, despite the fact of his attorney status. Otherwise, I am firmly in the camp with Zorba. I'm not anti-tech, I just like my vehicles simple, reliable, and non-nagging/nannying/interfering whilst driving.