Clicking when clutch is warm and pedal is depressed / released

[KennethS]

Loose the clutch twenty miles from civilization while camping or in afternoon rush our in NY. Not good no matter how you slice it.

Just wanted to point out you can drive and shift without using the clutch. Takeoff are tough, but you can do the fuse thing so the engine starts in gear, then rev match when shifting. It keeps you from being stranded. That’s one of the reasons I bought a Jeep with a manual transmission for wheeling in the Arizona wilderness.

 

[TheBoogieman]

With all the money you've spent to try to fix a noise, you could've done a 32rh auto swap to fix it. Growing one of these helps too.

 

[macleanflood]

Has anyone checked crankshaft end play? Perhaps you've got excessive wear in your thrust bearings?

Drop the oil pan, girdle and put a dial indicator on the side of a crank lobe and bar it over...see how much play there is.

I'd pull a bearing cap and inspect for wear and get numbers and maybe replace the oil pump and check timing chain tension while I was in there...or rear main seal.

-Mac

 

[CharlesHS]

Has anyone checked crankshaft end play? Perhaps you've got excessive wear in your thrust bearings?

Drop the oil pan, girdle and put a dial indicator on the side of a crank lobe and bar it over...see how much play there is.

I'd pull a bearing cap and inspect for wear and get numbers and maybe replace the oil pump and check timing chain tension while I was in there...or rear main seal.

-Mac

Give some thought on inspecting the harmonic balancer and serpentine belt for abnormal signs of movement.

 

[MikekiM]

Just wanted to point out you can drive and shift without using the clutch. Takeoff are tough, but you can do the fuse thing so the engine starts in gear, then rev match when shifting. It keeps you from being stranded. That’s one of the reasons I bought a Jeep with a manual transmission for wheeling in the Arizona wilderness.

You certainly can... I rev matched my way to safety when the TOB went. 20 Amp fuse in the #20 slot overrides the CSS. However, no way I want to do that in traffic on NY roads for more than what it takes to get to safety..

I am lucky the TOB didn't go five minutes later.. I would have been in bumper to bumper afternoon rush hour traffic.

With all the money you've spent to try to fix a noise, you could've done a 32rh auto swap to fix it. Growing one of these helps too.

View attachment 634259

Dude, you are absolutely right. Between Q3 '24 and now? I am embarrassed to say what I have spent. Love the Jeep and clicking noise aside it's one of the cleanest north east TJs I have seen. I have replaced virtually everything over the past few years of ownership. I'm a sucker and have more money than sense or restraint when it comes to the Jeep. I never expect to get my money back on mods; purely enjoyment but I have reached my limit and right now, I am not enjoying it.

It's not just "a noise". At least, I can't confirm that it is just a noise. If I could, I would live with the clicking and call it a day..

Has anyone checked crankshaft end play? Perhaps you've got excessive wear in your thrust bearings?

Drop the oil pan, girdle and put a dial indicator on the side of a crank lobe and bar it over...see how much play there is.

I'd pull a bearing cap and inspect for wear and get numbers and maybe replace the oil pump and check timing chain tension while I was in there...or rear main seal.

-Mac

Mac, it would be fiscally irresponsible for me to keep tossing dollars at this. I am in the abyss right now. In so deep that I can't stomach spending anything more, but already spent so much that I would get destroyed if I sold it. Hence... Driveway queen. Pick up a cheap hybrid to get me to and from work and be able to be a bit more leisurely with tackling problems with the TJ.

Give some thought on inspecting the harmonic balancer and serpentine belt for abnormal signs of movement.

Serpentine belt, pulley and tensioner were replaced in the last ten months.

 

[mrblaine]

Only issue is the clicking. The concern is whether it just annoying clicking (no creaking) or is something that is going to fail.

A few back, when this saga started, there was an annoying click. We assumed it was the MC/Slave going (I've been through three or four already) and ordered the Mopar unit. While waiting for delivery the National TOB installed when the transmission was swapped failed. Had to have the Jeep towed. Replaced the TOB and MC/Slave and once it was all back together the click returned.

So, is there something great afoot? How long before I am stranded again?

My confidence, and any fun, have all vanished.

Very odd. I had a rig in for a manual to auto swap. I drove it some to get a feel for it and to avoid the "since you touched it" syndrome. Worked just fine, no noises, nothing odd. When we dropped the transmission, all the ball bearings from the blown up throw-out bearing were stuck in a pile of melted grease in the bottom of the bellhousing.

 

[MikekiM]

The thought that I might have been better converting to an auto crossed my mind a few times.

So there was nothing that actually resembled a TOB and it still worked ok? Odd.

I should be so lucky

 

[TheBoogieman]

and have more money than sense.

I have neither. You're one step above me.

 

[06GEEP]

I cannot add any words of wisdom on fixing the issue, but I can say that I also have that noise. I have often wondered what it was but never worried about it enough to try to find it. And I've never thought that it was something that would break and leave me stranded, until now.... so thanks for putting that thought in my head.
Mine sounds more like a creaking sound rather than a clicking sound, although it really could be either. I could be wrong, but I don't think mine is anything other than an odd noise made from the clutch linkage.

 

[mrblaine]

I cannot add any words of wisdom on fixing the issue, but I can say that I also have that noise. I have often wondered what it was but never worried about it enough to try to find it. And I've never thought that it was something that would break and leave me stranded, until now.... so thanks for putting that thought in my head.
Mine sounds more like a creaking sound rather than a clicking sound, although it really could be either. I could be wrong, but I don't think mine is anything other than an odd noise made from the clutch linkage.

There really isn't any clutch linkage. There is a master and a slave cylinder that pushes on one end of the big fork. The slave is mounted to the side of the transmission. The other end of the fork is held onto a pivot ball with a goofy spring.

 

[MikekiM]

I cannot add any words of wisdom on fixing the issue, but I can say that I also have that noise. I have often wondered what it was but never worried about it enough to try to find it. And I've never thought that it was something that would break and leave me stranded, until now.... so thanks for putting that thought in my head.
Mine sounds more like a creaking sound rather than a clicking sound, although it really could be either. I could be wrong, but I don't think mine is anything other than an odd noise made from the clutch linkage.

Had I not been stranded multiple times in the last year (all transmission/clutch related) I would ignore it.

There is no clutch "linkage" other than the connection between the clutch MC and the clutch pedal. A single hydraulic line from the MC to the slave. I had a "creaky pedal" that was clearly coming from the pedal assembly that has been resolved.

There really isn't any clutch linkage. There is a master and a slave cylinder that pushes on one end of the big fork. The slave is mounted to the side of the transmission. The other end of the fork is held onto a pivot ball with a goofy spring.

This ^^^

 

[SSTJ]

Think @SSTJ has had similar

Great memory. Mine went away, and I haven't explored this any further. But the description, at the time, can still be found here.

 

[g.hayduke]

It pretty much has to be something in the bellhousing. You need someone competent to pull the trans and see what's going on.

Most likely what Mr Blaine said or something not correctly installed.

 

[Axeman]

My 2006 makes the same click, every press and release no matter the temp. From my research the most likely culprit is the clutch for spring. It seems they break easily, especially when replacing the clutch fork. It clicks as the fork is pivoting on the ball. I'm not too concerned with it but plan on replacing when I do the clutch over the winter. Clutch fork spring

 

[MikekiM]

It pretty much has to be something in the bellhousing. You need someone competent to pull the trans and see what's going on.

Most likely what Mr Blaine said or something not correctly installed.

I agree. I had left it for five days last week.. the shop is a transmission only shop. They did nothing with it for a week so out of frustration I took it home. They said…. Just drive it. See if gets better, worse or stays the same. Or, pay them $1200 to pull the transmission and search around with no real idea what they are looking for. That would be the fourth (or fifth) time the gear box would be coming out in two weeks. I had decided to spend the $$, which was a hard pill to swallow, and then they did nothing with it for days.

My 2006 makes the same click, every press and release no matter the temp. From my research the most likely culprit is the clutch for spring. It seems they break easily, especially when replacing the clutch fork. It clicks as the fork is pivoting on the ball. I'm not too concerned with it but plan on replacing when I do the clutch over the winter. Clutch fork spring

View attachment 634668

Hard to think that with the number of times the gear box has been out in just the last few weeks that the tech would have missed it. Possible? Sure.

 

[06GEEP]

There really isn't any clutch linkage.

My bad. I guess I was just generalizing with my linkage verbage.... plus I'm middle aged and clutches just had linkage when I was younger. Lol

 

[MikekiM]

Time to put a fork in this one. I've put about 300 miles on since getting it back and the clutch is smooth as butter. No clicking or popping.

I decided to wait for another shops calendar to open up and left it with him (one man shop) for two days.. Evans 4x4 is a small Jeep only shop. He specializes in CJs, TJs and an occasional JK.. He had done the re-gear on my TJ and some suspension work and was the first shop I called when the NV3550 shit the bed but he was booked for weeks.

Rolling the clock back to early July.. The AX15 swap was feeling good, as was the clutch. I was hearing a very faint gear sound that I (wrongly) associated with the new AX15, since everyone says the AX has a very mechanical sound. It wasn't the gear box. It was the six month old National ToB that was installed when the AX15 went in back in November, starting to fail. In the process it was putting a gouge in the snout on the bearing retainer cap on the face of the transmission. As the gear box warmed the snout expanded just enough to cause the audible click as the ToB rode over the gouge.

Ultimately the National ToB imploded which is what left me stranded. And, when it did go it mangled the also new Mopar clutch fork.

From a brand new turn key Novak AX15 caused by a brand new National ToB...

Looks like my straight edge is a little off on this one. But you get the point.

Look at the gouge on the pivot ball cap. How do you miss this?

Quick call to Dustin @NovakConversions and confirmed the bearing retainer was in stock. $79 plus about the same for expedited shipping and we had it in-hand by 10AM the next morning. Changed the retainer, the fork pivot ball, clips & clutch fork. The clutch is a month old and in good shape as is the Mopar ToB.

300 miles later and it's feeling good.

Here's the real rub... The shop that did the AX15 conversion were the guys I had searching for the clicking sound. They pulled the transmission three or four times and overlooked the damaged clutch fork and gouging on the snout. To make things worse, Evan also found...

• The heads on the upper bolts in the bell housing were mangled. They are reverse Torx bolts and it looks like the shop used a 12 point socket instead. We replaced the bolts with new.
• Only one bolt was holding the starter in place. It had multiple washers on it because it was too long. The second bolt was a fine-thread bolt instead of the stock coarse thread and the threads in the bell housing are mangled. Evan installed a helicoil and new bolts

I get it.. I've been back to the first shop so many times for the transmission and they no doubt lost a ton of money on me.. they just wanted the Jeep off the lift and out of the shop as fast as possible. I'm no mechanic but as soon as I ran a finger over the snout I knew we found the issue.

The REAL rub is it was the snout on the NV3550 that had sheered in half. Three shops price gouged me saying the transmission was shot. It's eight bolts to get the bearing retainer off and a replacement for the NV is readily available.. $39. I am into this for nearly five digits since November and it might have cost a grand to fix the NV3550.

No regrets... everything from the fly wheel to the transfer case is new. The Jeep shifts awesome.

Thank you all for your suggestions and support. In the end, it was @mrblaine who, in a DM, said.... "only thing left is the snout". I've never met Blaine, but we've spoken a few times. Big thank you to him for his wisdom.

Interestingly, Evan, the mechanic that fixed the Jeep is pretty rough around the edges. He can be really curt and is absolutely a no-nonsense guy. And, he really knows his shit. Maybe an east coast Blaine doppleganger?

 

[chili_pepper]

In the end, it was @mrblaine who, in a DM, said.... "only thing left is the snout". I've never met Blaine, but we've spoken a few times. Big thank you to him for his wisdom.

There's a reason he's known as the wizard...

 

[mrblaine]

Time to put a fork in this one. I've put about 300 miles on since getting it back and the clutch is smooth as butter. No clicking or popping.

I decided to wait for another shops calendar to open up and left it with him (one man shop) for two days.. Evans 4x4 is a small Jeep only shop. He specializes in CJs, TJs and an occasional JK.. He had done the re-gear on my TJ and some suspension work and was the first shop I called when the NV3550 shit the bed but he was booked for weeks.

Rolling the clock back to early July.. The AX15 swap was feeling good, as was the clutch. I was hearing a very faint gear sound that I (wrongly) associated with the new AX15, since everyone says the AX has a very mechanical sound. It wasn't the gear box. It was the six month old National ToB that was installed when the AX15 went in back in November, starting to fail. In the process it was putting a gouge in the snout on the bearing retainer cap on the face of the transmission. As the gear box warmed the snout expanded just enough to cause the audible click as the ToB rode over the gouge.

Ultimately the National ToB imploded which is what left me stranded. And, when it did go it mangled the also new Mopar clutch fork.

From a brand new turn key Novak AX15 caused by a brand new National ToB...
View attachment 641244

Looks like my straight edge is a little off on this one. But you get the point.
View attachment 641245

Look at the gouge on the pivot ball cap. How do you miss this?
View attachment 641246

Quick call to Dustin @NovakConversions and confirmed the bearing retainer was in stock. $79 plus about the same for expedited shipping and we had it in-hand by 10AM the next morning. Changed the retainer, the fork pivot ball, clips & clutch fork. The clutch is a month old and in good shape as is the Mopar ToB.

300 miles later and it's feeling good.

Here's the real rub... The shop that did the AX15 conversion were the guys I had searching for the clicking sound. They pulled the transmission three or four times and overlooked the damaged clutch fork and gouging on the snout. To make things worse, Evan also found...

• The heads on the upper bolts in the bell housing were mangled. They are reverse Torx bolts and it looks like the shop used a 12 point socket instead. We replaced the bolts with new.
• Only one bolt was holding the starter in place. It had multiple washers on it because it was too long. The second bolt was a fine-thread bolt instead of the stock coarse thread and the threads in the bell housing are mangled. Evan installed a helicoil and new bolts

I get it.. I've been back to the first shop so many times for the transmission and they no doubt lost a ton of money on me.. they just wanted the Jeep off the lift and out of the shop as fast as possible. I'm no mechanic but as soon as I ran a finger over the snout I knew we found the issue.

The REAL rub is it was the snout on the NV3550 that had sheered in half. Three shops price gouged me saying the transmission was shot. It's eight bolts to get the bearing retainer off and a replacement for the NV is readily available.. $39. I am into this for nearly five digits since November and it might have cost a grand to fix the NV3550.

No regrets... everything from the fly wheel to the transfer case is new. The Jeep shifts awesome.

Thank you all for your suggestions and support. In the end, it was @mrblaine who, in a DM, said.... "only thing left is the snout". I've never met Blaine, but we've spoken a few times. Big thank you to him for his wisdom.

Interestingly, Evan, the mechanic that fixed the Jeep is pretty rough around the edges. He can be really curt and is absolutely a no-nonsense guy. And, he really knows his shit. Maybe an east coast Blaine doppleganger?

Even a blind acorn gets carried home by a squirrel now and then. Glad it is fixed.

 

[NovakConversions]

Quite the experience. Glad you have it squared away!