97 Wrangler 2.5 starting issues

[Schaeff58]

Hello! First post here, but belong to other car forums. GOTTA say this place seems really great! Lots of good help I am reading and really smart folks, passionate about jeeps!

I have in my garage, on my scissor lift a 1997 2.5 Jeep wrangler. About 174k on the clock. This vehicle sat for at least a year, according to the owner, (I think more like three or more) before she retrieved it and brought it to her current house. I towed it to my garage a week ago and have been pecking away at it.

She said they put 'cleaner' in the gas, then some fresh!?!?!?! It will start, sorta.... will not idle, or drive stalls out very quickly.

I found one code:
A P0463 indicates a "Fuel Level Sensor Circuit High Input," meaning there's an issue with the fuel level sensor or its wiring. This can lead to a variety of symptoms, including an inaccurate or fluctuating fuel gauge, or a stuck gauge. Possible causes include a faulty fuel level sensor, a short in the wiring, or a problem with the fuel sending unit.
Did not think this was the problem with the motor, am I wrong? I do notice sometimes the fuel gauge says about half other times it says empty....

What I have done:
Replaced the crankshaft sensor.... one off amazon for about 20 bucks... Result, no change.

Pulled, cleaned and replaced the distributor, rotor, button etc.... result, no change...

Pulled and cleaned the throttle body, found a bad o-ring on the IAC, it was probably the wrong one and someone just tightened it down. One quarter of it was all smashed flat.... might have still been sealing but not sure.... Result, no change....

After all the attempts at starting the engine... I think the starter is going out.... Battery is fully charged, but sometimes it will not crank... dash goes blank... Nada, nothing, goose egg....
I remove the cables and put then together to (I guess it clear out the CPU, read that here) and i will bang on the starter a bit.... turn the key, lights again... cranks but nothing different...
If I uses some either, aka starting fluid, it starts right up but runs like crap... and dies does not help that the exhaust dounut is bad.... sorta loud lol but it makes it hard to see if its missing or not..

I looked around at the wiring et al, and have not noticed any issues... yet... fuese box is flopping loose.... but no bad fueses or wires I have found yet.

I am starting to think its a fuel issue (DOH! I mean it should not take a genius to come up with that after all the time sitting right... lol...) but not sure how to proceeded there.... I dont have a fuel pressure tester, I may need to get one.... So suggestions there might help me....

I have done lots of car work, r&r motors, trans, etc... so I can do the work.. This Jeep is providing me some challenges sadly... I have read a lot of posts here and they have been very informative.... Seems these issues are a common problem with jeeps of this era?

So do I try to drain the tank? Take it down? test fuel pressure first?

Thoughts anyone, and thanks for reading....

Schaeff58

 

[ItchyDong]

I’d test for fuel pressure. If good, drain the tank and try fresh fuel. Sitting that long it’s almost impossible to not, at very minimum, eliminate bad fuel as the cause.

You can disconnect a hose somewhere and apply 12 volts to the pump and use the fuel pump to drain the tank without dropping it. You can also achieve this with a bi-directional scan tool and command the fuel pump on.

 

[The4bangertj]

Ya the fuel level sender is on the fuel pump itself so I’d suspect the pump has issues since the gauge is freaking out and when you run starter fuel it’ll start so that tells me it’s isolating the problem it to be a fuel issue. If it’s not rusty you can drop the tank getting access to the pump and lines very easy and fast.

 

[Schaeff58]

I’d test for fuel pressure. If good, drain the tank and try fresh fuel. Sitting that long it’s almost impossible to not, at very minimum, eliminate bad fuel as the cause.

You can disconnect a hose somewhere and apply 12 volts to the pump and use the fuel pump to drain the tank without dropping it. You can also achieve this with a bi-directional scan tool and command the fuel pump on.

Thanks for the quick reply. That is a what I am thinking.... just didn't what to do it... Like you said, I have to eliminate the fuel as an issue. I gotta see about a fuel pressure tester.... bi-directional scan tool.... been wanting a better scan tool .... might be the time... all i have currently is an old obd reader... paid a lot for it back in the day... still works... but its limted....

Thanks...

 

[Schaeff58]

Ya the fuel level sender is on the fuel pump itself so I’d suspect the pump has issues since the gauge is freaking out and when you run starter fuel it’ll start so that tells me it’s isolating the problem it to be a fuel issue. If it’s not rusty you can drop the tank getting access to the pump and lines very easy and fast.

Thanks for quick reply....

I was wondering if it was all in the tank.... so I am sure there is some rust.. but I will look at how hard all this is... the tank reads about half or better full, so I may try to drain it somehow.

Thanks...

 

[KennethS]

Ya the fuel level sender is on the fuel pump itself so I’d suspect the pump has issues since the gauge is freaking out and when you run starter fuel it’ll start so that tells me it’s isolating the problem it to be a fuel issue. If it’s not rusty you can drop the tank getting access to the pump and lines very easy and fast.

I doubt the gauge issue is affecting the pump operation. My gauge has been doing a similar thing for 10 years and the engine runs fine.

I agree with getting fresh fuel in the tank. I would also change the spark plugs as they may be fouled from the old fuel.

 

[The4bangertj]

I doubt the gauge issue is affecting the pump operation. My gauge has been doing a similar thing for 10 years and the engine runs fine.

I agree with getting fresh fuel in the tank. I would also change the spark plugs as they may be fouled from the old fuel.

I wasn’t saying the gauge issue was causing the pump to be bad but it gives me more reason to think it’s the pump since something on it has already gone bad on it.

Thanks for quick reply....

I was wondering if it was all in the tank.... so I am sure there is some rust.. but I will look at how hard all this is... the tank reads about half or better full, so I may try to drain it somehow.

Thanks...

Tj tanks are plastic so it shouldn’t have rust but ya never know. Got to start isolating the fuel problem to see where the issue lies.

 

[KennethS]

I wasn’t saying the gauge issue was causing the pump to be bad but it gives me more reason to think it’s the pump since something on it has already gone bad on it.

But that is what my Jeep is doing and the pump is fine.

Anyway, it’s easy enough to check the fuel pressure to determine if the pump has an issue.

 

[Schaeff58]

I doubt the gauge issue is affecting the pump operation. My gauge has been doing a similar thing for 10 years and the engine runs fine.

I agree with getting fresh fuel in the tank. I would also change the spark plugs as they may be fouled from the old fuel.

I get what you are saying about the sensor and thanks for the reply... I get that the sensor is one thing and the pump is another. I dont think this owner, 60's plus woman, wants to have to remember her millage etc. I have had gauges that did not read correctly in several vehicles and just remembered to fill or put some gas in after x miles... but its nice to just look and see your fuel level .... Spark plugs is on my list and I think distributor components.... cap, rotor etc. She said someone did some maintenance (not sure when or what) so she may be upset when I swap out stuff she thinks she already paid for, but thats what happens when a vehicle sits. Personally I think she is lucky it was not vandalized where it was sitting.... She has been in this new place three years. Jeep still sitting someplace else...It has sat here at her new place for 6mos.... she said its only been sitting wherever it was a year... regardless its not been driven at all.... lots of mud wasps nests all over the thing.... Sorry if TMI but it all adds to what needs to be done....

Yes I will somehow test fuel pressure... Or I may just drain and drop the tank and replace fuel pump.... I may have to install a new starter first.... and go from there... Thanks for your input!

Schaeff58

 

[Schaeff58]

I wasn’t saying the gauge issue was causing the pump to be bad but it gives me more reason to think it’s the pump since something on it has already gone bad on it.


Tj tanks are plastic so it shouldn’t have rust but ya never know. Got to start isolating the fuel problem to see where the issue lies.

@The4bangertj
I agree.... Did not know the tanks are plastic.... It could have a load of debris in the tank... So it may have to be cleaned out...and if I drop in a new pump et al is going in... That may be what I do... since the sensor for the gauge is bad... she is gonna need that I think... so taking the tank out and replacing the pump is probably the way Ill go...

Thanks for the input!

Schaeff58

 

[ItchyDong]

She said someone did some maintenance (not sure when or what) so she may be upset when I swap out stuff she thinks she already paid for, but thats what happens when a vehicle sits.

She should be upset. Help her out by setting the parts cannon down, and testing instead of guessing.

 

[Schaeff58]

She should be upset. Help her out by setting the parts cannon down, and testing instead of guessing.

Umm well so far I spent about 20 bucks on what I thought was a good first bet for a fix.... went with what she told me about gas et al... but thinking it was wrong... she is not upset with me and I never said she was upset, just that she could be. However if she wants this to be a dependable vehicle, the few things I suggested are required to make it that way I think. So even if she paid for plugs, she may need new ones as they could be fouled... Ill wait to see what a fuel pump does since I think I am going to go that route, and she needs that since the sensor seems to be failing. I am not in this for the money, just to help out a friend. I don't think my decision to replace the fuel pump is a guess... its a need because of the gauge sensor issue. If I can find some sort of testing device I may try to test the pump.... but I feel it still needs to be replaced.

Came here for help, not criticism. I apricate your impute and value your time. Thanks so much for that.

Schaeff58

 

[Schaeff58]

I got some more time on this jeep. I pulled a plug and it has about an 8th inch gap! I could not find my plug gauge... i have several of them... so I could not measure it.... Also I disconnected the fuel line in order to attempt to drain the tank.... Well ,,,, I now know what the fuel pressure is.... (dont need that new tester that is coming tomorrow) its ZERO. LOL I applied power to the pump at the fuse box and I can hear the pump make noise... more like a humming than a running sound, and no fuel comes out.... (it did dripple out at first when I cranked the key) It does occur to me that the tank maybe empty.... l tried to us a long length of tubing to siphon some out... but I cannot get the tubing to go into the tank.... maybe some type of anti-siphon spring in the fill tube... SO I guess I am going to try and drop the tank. Is it possible there is an obstruction in the fuel line from the pump? If I blow air back into the tank is that a bad idea?

Also I was wondering if there is an access door to the fuel pump.... some cars have them. There is a bunch of stuff in the car, so not sure if it would be easier to just drop the tank or move the stuff if there was a door.... thinking drop the tank....

Schaeff58

 

[RoadRanger]

I thought my '98 has a metal tank - is there metal armor on the stock TJ?
Also my fuel gauge only goes up to 3/4 when "full" - is this common on older TJs?

 

[The4bangertj]

I thought my '98 has a metal tank - is there metal armor on the stock TJ?
Also my fuel gauge only goes up to 3/4 - is this common on older TJs?

Yes the plastic tank is strapped into a metal skid. The skid bolts up to the frame so it’s hard to see the plastic tank in it.

 

[RoadRanger]

Yes the plastic tank is strapped into a metal skid. The skid bolts up to the frame so it’s hard to see the plastic tank in it.

Thanks! I was worried that the naked tank was hanging down like that

 

[macleanflood]

No access door for the fuel pump unless one like UCF sells has been retrofitted.

Yes, it's a metal skid holding a plastic tank. Six bolts plus the fill neck. And then two straps holding the tank to the skid. Drop the tank 6", then disconnect the fuel, EVAP and wiring connector.

What's the fuel gauge read? I'd probably add 5 gallons of gas and see what happens.

-Mac

 

[Schaeff58]

No access door for the fuel pump unless one like UCF sells has been retrofitted.

Yes, it's a metal skid holding a plastic tank. Six bolts plus the fill neck. And then two straps holding the tank to the skid. Drop the tank 6", then disconnect the fuel, EVAP and wiring connector.

What's the fuel gauge read? I'd probably add 5 gallons of gas and see what happens.

-Mac

Hey Mac, thanks for the reply...Bummer on the no access plate that would just make too much sense... but seat would probably have to come out etc... so I get it... yes plastic tank, and yes a metal skid plate.... The fuel gauge is wonky.... sometimes its reads low to empty and the fuel light is on, other times its a little above half.... owner says she put fuel in it recently.... how recently is anyone's guess. Adding fuel is not a bad idea, but I think there is fuel in there... I need to confirm...

Did a search for a vid on tank removal... this one helped me see how to do it. Not sure if its exactly the same... Maybe it can help someone else!

I will try this at some point today I hope.. Looks like removing the drivers side tire helps access the lines and the electrical connections. Does not look that bad, compared to my suburban....



Thanks

 

[Schaeff58]

Happy Father's Day Eve!

So Did not get on the Jeep yesterday, but did this am. Got the tanked dropped.... over half full.... I used my floor jack, and some jack stands and part of a piece of 1/2 plywood. Removed all but two of the nuts, the filler neck and the filler neck surround. Positioned everything just so, jack in the middle, jack stands back a bit on the sides and, plywood on top and then lowered the jeep close to the plywood.... Jacked up the plywood and held the tank in place... took off last two nuts and started to raise the jeep a tad... lowered the tank onto the plywood and stopped when supported by the plywood and let it rest there in a solid work platform... and off the ground so I could siphon the nasty gas! Brought the jeep up and guided the filler neck et all, disconnecting the ground, until there was room to work on the tank.

Cleaned off all the crap around the big white ring and then removed it. The pump came right out and left the strainer behind in pieces all over the inside of the tank... that gas was bad and there was a bunch of what I looked like sand in the bottom of the tank. (Hope the fuel line is not full too) Siphoned all that I could out of the tank then drug it out to my fire pit and dumped the rest out.... maybe 3/4 of a gallon... wiped the inside out twice and let it dry, evaporate the rest in the sun... then put a rag over it with the gromet and set it back waiting for the pump. Supposed to come today, but I may be done for now....

That was a job, not too bad but all that gas was a huge PITA to deal with.. gas was bad... for sure... what do I do with that?

Oh, Autopsied the pump.... when I pulled the pump out of the tank, there was very little gas in the pump cylinder itself... what was in there was very dirty and mostly black..... Took the pump out and tried to run it on 12 vdc... just hummed, no spin at all... smacked it on the garage apron slightly a couple times and then gave it power again... it took off and ran! But it was not right... lots of very small particles came out of the bottom of the pump... it was toast!

I was remined by how gas burns flesh.... especially old man sweaty flesh... lol... another reason I quit...

Few pics: of the operation....Shop forman showed up and supervised!

 

[Rickyd]

These jeeps are very sensitive to anything other than oem sensors. If you really want to put Chinese garbage in,save the old ones to be safe