Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ radiator

Pinion pre-load, shim, and pinion nut question

UKTJ

UKTJ

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I have finally started work to regear a HP Dana 30 to put into my TJ but have run into my first issue / question pretty quickly.

I have watched a load of YouTube content, especially @hosejockey61 excellent video on a HP 30 regear and ARB locker (which I am also fitting) and have tried to ensure I follow the correct proceedure. I have pressed on the pinion bearing (with slinger / thrust washer) and made up a set up race for inside the housing. I have fitted the oil baffle and then the set up race (I am trying that combination first without any additional shims as that is what was in the axle when I took it apart). I have then fitted the pinion, added the tail bearing shim stack* (I have started with 75 thousandths versus the 72 thousandths I took off the old pinion) and oil baffle at the back and put the yoke on using the set up nut I made from the old nut to tighten it enough until I can remove it and add the washer and put the nut back on.

My next step is to tighten the pinion nut down to torque spec (I was planning to shoot for about 160 ft lbs) and then check for pre-load on the pinion with an inch lb beam style torque wrench. I have used an impact wrench to get the nut so far and then switched to a large torque wrench. But, with my biggest torque wrench set at 160 ft lbs I simply cannot put enough force on it to get the nut to turn or the wrnch to 'click'. I have dropped the wrench down to 120 ft lbs and still no joy. At the moment all I am doing is twisting / lifting the axle up into the air.

I am happy to strap the axle down and add weigh to the bottom of the stands I am using so I can put more pressure on the nut. But I don't want to do that if I am likely to be destroying a bearing or something. ANy input would be very much appreciated.




* My Revolution master install kit came with a very limited number of this type of shim, I only have 3x25t, 1x14t and 2x13t. Using these my options for small adjustments are limited, so I may have to use shims that came off the axle when I took it apart.
 
When you say tail bearing shims, do you mean the small stack of shims for pinion preload?

The only shims affecting depth from factory are the slinger (0.050-0.055ish - sized as appropriate to set pinion depth), and the baffle (0.020 if I remember right).

Any other shim would be the preload shims which you won’t use during setups. There is also a thrust washer that you DO use during setup but it doesn’t affect pinion depth. Preload shims are not used during setup because for setup all you need is to have the pinion snug so that the bearings spin nicely but have no slack. Functionally, a little bit tighter or loose will not affect the depth/pattern checks because all you need is the pinion bearings to be seated firmly during setup.

So start with the slinger and baffle first, see where it lands. If depth needs adjustment, then you switch to the thinner 0.030 (typical, measure to confirm) slinger that comes in the master kit, and make up the other 0.025ish with included pinion depth shims, put on the yoke side of the baffle.

An alternative is to measure the original slinger, measure new slinger (should be 0.030), add shim and start with the aftermarket stuff, mimicking the factory setup that way.

Aftermarket kits give the thinner slinger so that you have adjustment, since the factory used different slingers to achieve the desired depth. None of us have a million different factory slingers lying around, so this is the best the aftermarket can do (unfortunately).


All this to say that you shouldn’t be torquing the pinion nut for setup. You should be simply installing the pinion setup with no preload shims and the nut snugged down to take out slack.

For final torque upon assembly, put the axle under the jeep and then torque it. Or have multiple other people help hold the axle down while you torque it. But don’t torque it during setup, and remove the preload shims.
 
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machoheadgames said:
When you say tail bearing shims, do you mean the small stack of shims for pinion preload?
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly what I mean.

machoheadgames said:
The only shims affecting depth from factory are the slinger (0.050-0.055ish - sized as appropriate to set pinion depth), and the baffle (0.020 if I remember right).

Any other shim would be the preload shims which you won’t use during setups. There is also a thrust washer that you DO use during setup but it doesn’t affect pinion depth. Preload shims are not used during setup because for setup all you need is to have the pinion snug so that the bearings spin nicely but have no slack. Functionally, a little bit tighter or loose will not affect the depth/pattern checks because all you need is the pinion bearings to be seated firmly during setup.

So start with the slinger and baffle first, see where it lands. If depth needs adjustment, then you switch to the thinner 0.030 (typical, measure to confirm) slinger that comes in the master kit, and make up the other 0.025ish with included pinion depth shims, put on the yoke side of the baffle.

An alternative is to measure the original slinger, measure new slinger (should be 0.030), add shim and start with the aftermarket stuff, mimicking the factory setup that way.

Aftermarket kits give the thinner slinger so that you have adjustment, since the factory used different slingers to achieve the desired depth. None of us have a million different factory slingers lying around, so this is the best the aftermarket can do (unfortunately).
Click to expand...

Annoyingly the MAster Install kit Revolution shipped me did not include the thinner slinger. I can buy one, but annoyingly I have to get it shipped to the UK, so a $2 part ends up costing $22 with shipping and import taxes. So in the first instance I went with the original slinger and baffle with my fingers crossed. If the pinion is too deep I'll just need to bite the bullet and get a thinner one sent. At the same time I could order more shims, but knowing my luck they will be at a different RockAuto warehouse so there will be no shipping synergy.

I know Revolution are highly regarded here, but with no slinger provided and the pathetic selection / number of tail being shims included I am unimpressed with their install kit so far.

machoheadgames said:
All this to say that you shouldn’t be torquing the pinion nut for setup. You should be simply installing the pinion setup with no preload shims and the nut snugged down to take out slack.

For final torque upon assembly, put the axle under the jeep and then torque it. Or have multiple other people help hold the axle down while you torque it. But don’t torque it during setup, and remove the preload shims.
Click to expand...

OK, so I am doing it in the wrong order. But if I do the gear set up first and then move to preload last will I not just encounter the same issue than as I am now? But by that time having put a lot more work in. Plus in answering a separate question @hosejockey61 advised to tighten the pinion nut to final torque when doing set up to avoid a different torque changing the set up...

hosejockey61 said:
160-200 is fine. The HP30 uses shims instead of a crush sleeve so anywhere in that range is fine. Use red loctite too. When setting your preload, tighten the nut to what you plan on using for final torque and stay consistent with that. That will ensure it stays the same when you do your final setup. I've seen many preload specs change because it was tightened to a higher spec for final. That has the potential to increase the preload.
Click to expand...
 
UKTJ said:
Yes, exactly what I mean.
Click to expand...

Okay, yes, those need to be left out for setup process.

UKTJ said:
Annoyingly the MAster Install kit Revolution shipped me did not include the thinner slinger. I can buy one, but annoyingly I have to get it shipped to the UK, so a $2 part ends up costing $22 with shipping and import taxes. So in the first instance I went with the original slinger and baffle with my fingers crossed. If the pinion is too deep I'll just need to bite the bullet and get a thinner one sent. At the same time I could order more shims, but knowing my luck they will be at a different RockAuto warehouse so there will be no shipping synergy.

I know Revolution are highly regarded here, but with no slinger provided and the pathetic selection / number of tail being shims included I am unimpressed with their install kit so far.
Click to expand...

That is a pain for sure. I don't really like master install kits from any brand because NONE of them are ever perfect. You receive limited shims, and what you do get are definitely not like stock. Really, the problem is aftermarket vs OEM setup. OEM does measurements at the factory and then spits out the correct shim needed to make it work. Then they simply grab those perfect width shims from the pile and send it down the road. The problem is, there is simply no way for the master kit sellers to do it the same way, they have to give you the thin crappy shims so that you have options to choose from.

It definitely sucks for your situation being in the UK. I don't know why you didn't receive a slinger, my HP30 kit came with one (Revolution).

What is the thickness of your stock slinger? Without a thinner aftermarket slinger, you basically have no adjustment options for depth currently besides going deeper...no way to go shallower since your stock slinger is already much thicker than the one that should have been in the master kit.

Did you receive a baffle as part of the kit? I ended up buying like 10 baffles to give myself something to work with. They are pretty much always damaged when hammering the race out, and a setup race helps but it was still not perfect. So I wanted extras. Those are typically 0.020, all of mine were.

UKTJ said:
But if I do the gear set up first and then move to preload last will I not just encounter the same issue than as I am now? But by that time having put a lot more work in.
Click to expand...

Yes, you will still have to find a way to deal with torquing down the nut. Find a way to strap it down or have a person or two help hold it down while you torque. Really all I can think of. I did mine under the Jeep and it was equally painful, but I was able to torque it easily enough since the Jeep held the axle for me.

UKTJ said:
Plus in answering a separate question @hosejockey61 advised to tighten the pinion nut to final torque when doing set up to avoid a different torque changing the set up...
Click to expand...

Read back through what he said - his advice is true but it is for preload, not for affecting pinion depth. Bearing seated is bearing seated. As long as you have the nut snugged down enough to seat the bearings firmly, you are good to work on the setup. The preload shims are added and tweaked at the very end - once setup is figured out (determining what the carrier shims and pinion depth shims need to be). Only once setup is done, do you mess with preload. What Mike is saying to do is during the preload process choose a torque number and stick with it, so you get consistent and comparable numbers once you're checking preload each time.

For example, if you do a preload stack and torque the nut to 200, then it ends up without the right preload, when you do your next preload stack and check again, go to 200 again. Basically, choose a torque number and stick with it. Doesn't really matter if it's 160, 200, or 240. Just be consistent with whatever you choose. But again, you are not doing anything with that untiil the end.

No matter what torque spec you choose, the pinion depth is not going to be changing at that point. Pinion depth is based solely on the slinger, baffle, and any aftermarket shims you add.
 
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Thank you for taking the time to provide such a detailed and helpful reply, it is very much appreciated.
machoheadgames said:
Okay, yes, those need to be left out for setup process.
Click to expand...
OK, tomorrow I will remove the pinion so I can take those shims out for now.

machoheadgames said:
That is a pain for sure. I don't really like master install kits from any brand because NONE of them are ever perfect. You receive limited shims, and what you do get are definitely not like stock. Really, the problem is aftermarket vs OEM setup. OEM does measurements at the factory and then spits out the correct shim needed to make it work. Then they simply grab those perfect width shims from the pile and send it down the road. The problem is, there is simply no way for the master kit sellers to do it the same way, they have to give you the thin crappy shims so that you have options to choose from.

It definitely sucks for your situation being in the UK. I don't know why you didn't receive a slinger, my HP30 kit came with one (Revolution).

What is the thickness of your stock slinger? Without a thinner aftermarket slinger, you basically have no adjustment options for depth currently besides going deeper...no way to go shallower since your stock slinger is already much thicker than the one that should have been in the master kit.
Click to expand...
The stock slinger and baffle were 72 thousandths IIRC. The Revolution set up guide suggests 65 thousandths, so I may well find the pinion is too deep when I run a pattern. As it was the only slinger I had I thought I may as well give it a go and keep my fingers crossed. From the BFH YouTube content I think @hosejockey61 says that the slinger is not absolutely essential, so maybe I could just go with the baffle and shims if the slinger gets the pinion too deep.

machoheadgames said:
Did you receive a baffle as part of the kit? I ended up buying like 10 baffles to give myself something to work with. They are pretty much always damaged when hammering the race out, and a setup race helps but it was still not perfect. So I wanted extras. Those are typically 0.020, all of mine were.
Click to expand...
No, but fortunately I had ordered one of those separately. On reflection the Install kit was a waste of money, I should have just bought parts separately, especially as I don't even need the two carrier bearings as I now know the ARBs use different bearings which are included with the lockers.

machoheadgames said:
Yes, you will still have to find a way to deal with torquing down the nut. Find a way to strap it down or have a person or two help hold it down while you torque. Really all I can think of. I did mine under the Jeep and it was equally painful, but I was able to torque it easily enough since the Jeep held the axle for me.
Click to expand...
OK, can strap the acle to the builders' trestles I am using as a stand and if necessary maybe look to drill holes in the bottom of the tressles to ssrew the stands to the floor of the shed I am working in. My wife tried to hold it down for me today, but it was too much force for her, possible my son might have more luck, but he is now at university until Christmas.

machoheadgames said:
Read back through what he said - his advice is true but it is for preload, not for affecting pinion depth. Bearing seated is bearing seated. As long as you have the nut snugged down enough to seat the bearings firmly, you are good to work on the setup. The preload shims are added and tweaked at the very end - once setup is figured out (determining what the carrier shims and pinion depth shims need to be). Only once setup is done, do you mess with preload. What Mike is saying to do is during the preload process choose a torque number and stick with it, so you get consistent and comparable numbers once you're checking preload each time.

For example, if you do a preload stack and torque the nut to 200, then it ends up without the right preload, when you do your next preload stack and check again, go to 200 again. Basically, choose a torque number and stick with it. Doesn't really matter if it's 160, 200, or 240. Just be consistent with whatever you choose. But again, you are not doing anything with that untiil the end.

No matter what torque spec you choose, the pinion depth is not going to be changing at that point. Pinion depth is based solely on the slinger, baffle, and any aftermarket shims you add.
Click to expand...
That is clear now you explain it, apologies for my confusion.

Thanks again for your help.
 
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What are you using to hold the yoke when you are torquing? I had issues using a pipe wrench with the axle out so picked up one of these yoke tools wrenches and a long breaker bar. That allowed me to get it torqued nice and good without it flopping all over the place.

1727300325545.png
 
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LJGreg said:
What are you using to hold the yoke when you are torquing? I had issues using a pipe wrench with the axle out so picked up one of these yoke tools wrenches and a long breaker bar. That allowed me to get it torqued nice and good without it flopping all over the place.

View attachment 560947
Click to expand...

I am using the pipe wrench technique, so that could be contributing to my problems. Have it set up so pipe wrench gets pushed up one of the bars on the tressle to hold it from moving, but maybe that is still not as good as the tool you show.
 
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With the wrench tool, I was able to have the breaker bar resting against my upper body and then pulling the torque wrench towards me with both hands. I had no issues getting it torqued without a helper.
 
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If I do need to order a new slinger / thrust bearing (heard it referred to as both), can anyone guide me to the right part on Rock Auto? I can see a coupe of options that may be the correct one, but there is not one of those exploded diagrams so I can be sure it is the one I need. I am looking for the big one that goes between the pinion head and the brearing that gets pressed onto the pinion at the start of the process.
 
Slinger - (0.030) - Dana 30764

Baffle - (0.020) Dana 32349

Thrust washer - Mopar J0636566 - this is the one that goes between the outer bearing and the yoke. You can reuse it. It is referred to as a thrust washer or a slinger. No need to replace though.

I’m sure you probably can go without the slinger, but I wouldn’t. High pinion axles benefit from it because it helps keep oil up in those bearings. Same reason for the baffle. They don’t add parts for fun or no reason, so I like to keep stuff like that.
 
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machoheadgames said:
Slinger - (0.030) - Dana 30764

Baffle - (0.020) Dana 32349

Thrust washer - Mopar J0636566 - this is the one that goes between the outer bearing and the yoke. You can reuse it. It is referred to as a thrust washer or a slinger. No need to replace though.

I’m sure you probably can go without the slinger, but I wouldn’t. High pinion axles benefit from it because it helps keep oil up in those bearings. Same reason for the baffle. They don’t add parts for fun or no reason, so I like to keep stuff like that.
Click to expand...

Thanks again. It does not look like that Dana slinger is available on RockAuto and so far I have not found anyone that does sell it who ships to the UK. On RockAuto I can find the following:

"USA STANDARD GEAR USA33011 Pinion Oil Deflector Info
One of our most popular parts

Fits
Flag indicates this part fits vehicles sold in the USA. It does not indicate where the part was made -- manufacturers produce parts in multiple factories worldwide.
Front; 4WD; Dana 30; Reverse Rotation; Outer slinger
or
Flag indicates this part fits vehicles sold in the USA. It does not indicate where the part was made -- manufacturers produce parts in multiple factories worldwide.
Front; 4WD; Dana 30; Crush Sleeve Design; Outer slinger"
Or
"USA STANDARD GEAR USA33012 Pinion Oil Deflector Info
Fits
Flag indicates this part fits vehicles sold in the USA. It does not indicate where the part was made -- manufacturers produce parts in multiple factories worldwide.
Front; 4WD; Dana 30; Reverse Rotation; Inner slinger
or
Flag indicates this part fits vehicles sold in the USA. It does not indicate where the part was made -- manufacturers produce parts in multiple factories worldwide.
Front; 4WD; Dana 30; Crush Sleeve Design; Inner slinger"

Link to page: https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog...4,drivetrain,differential+oil+slinger,1001291

Would the correct one be the second, ie the Inner Slinger? This quotes an OEM part number of "YSPBF013" on RockAuto, though that appears to be a Yukon part number.
 
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UKTJ said:
Thanks again. It does not look like that Dana slinger is available on RockAuto and so far I have not found anyone that does sell it who ships to the UK. On RockAuto I can find the following:

"USA STANDARD GEAR USA33011 Pinion Oil Deflector Info View attachment 560968
FitsView attachment 560969 Front; 4WD; Dana 30; Reverse Rotation; Outer slinger
orView attachment 560970 Front; 4WD; Dana 30; Crush Sleeve Design; Outer slinger"
Or
"USA STANDARD GEAR USA33012 Pinion Oil Deflector Info
FitsView attachment 560971 Front; 4WD; Dana 30; Reverse Rotation; Inner slinger
orView attachment 560972 Front; 4WD; Dana 30; Crush Sleeve Design; Inner slinger"

Link to page: https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog...4,drivetrain,differential+oil+slinger,1001291

Would the correct one be the second, ie the Inner Slinger? This quotes an OEM part number of "YSPBF013" on RockAuto, though that appears to be a Yukon part number.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the second USA standard part will be the right part. It’s probably the same 0.030 part that the Dana is. If it’s not, just change your shims accordingly. It is possibly the Dana part in a USA standard bag.
 
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Sorry I'm late to the game today! The slinger from the factory is also used as a shim. They come in various different sizes to make mass production faster. Instead of multiple small shims, they grab one in the size they need. It doubles as an oil slinger.

Blaine states it best. If you think gear oil won't make it to the backside of the pumpkin, put the axle on a bench, cover off, full of oil, facing the ceiling. Turn the gears at an RPM that mimics driving and see how big of a mess you end up with. Engineers do throw slingers and baffles in there to optimize performance. I've run my HP30 for many years without a slinger or baffle with zero issues. If you have one, then use it. If not, I don't worry about it. That's the reason you don't find slingers in master install kits. They use shims instead.

Clarifying on the pinion preload-

When determining the shim stack needed for preload, I always check using the same torque spec. If you tighten to roughly 160 and get within spec, and then tighten to 210 for final install, your going to see some differences in preload. By using the same torque spec you plan on using for final install, it takes out any surprises.
 
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hosejockey61 said:
Sorry I'm late to the game today! The slinger from the factory is also used as a shim. They come in various different sizes to make mass production faster. Instead of multiple small shims, they grab one in the size they need. It doubles as an oil slinger.

Blaine states it best. If you think gear oil won't make it to the backside of the pumpkin, put the axle on a bench, cover off, full of oil, facing the ceiling. Turn the gears at an RPM that mimics driving and see how big of a mess you end up with. Engineers do throw slingers and baffles in there to optimize performance. I've run my HP30 for many years without a slinger or baffle with zero issues. If you have one, then use it. If not, I don't worry about it. That's the reason you don't find slingers in master install kits. They use shims instead.

Clarifying on the pinion preload-

When determining the shim stack needed for preload, I always check using the same torque spec. If you tighten to roughly 160 and get within spec, and then tighten to 210 for final install, your going to see some differences in preload. By using the same torque spec you plan on using for final install, it takes out any surprises.
Click to expand...

Late or not, your help is much appreciated.
 
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LJGreg said:
What are you using to hold the yoke when you are torquing? I had issues using a pipe wrench with the axle out so picked up one of these yoke tools wrenches and a long breaker bar. That allowed me to get it torqued nice and good without it flopping all over the place.

View attachment 560947
Click to expand...

I'm beginning to lose the will to live.

Whilst I will leave the preload on the pinion until I have the gears set, not being able to get the big pinion nut close to torque is still giving me an issue. I am trying to check backlash, but the pinion has so little preload on it when I rock the ring gear back and forth the pinion is moving, meaning I can't get an accurate reading on the backlash.

So I have just had the above tool delivered, but to use it I need to bolt it to the yoke. As this is a new to me axle (a HP Dana 30 from a Cherokee) I do not have the bolts to attach the driveshaft to the yoke (probably same as on my TJ I guess, but don't want to take that apart at the moment) and just want to buy four spare ones so I can attach the tool. Struggling to find the size online, can anyone help with the bolt size?

EDIT: Have just found a suggestion the bolts are 1/4"-28 x .625". Does that match what people think? In a metric country I will not find it easy to get those, so want to be sure.
 
Don't worry about getting pinion preload to torque spec if you haven't gotten the backlash correct yet.

Just tighten the pinion nut with no shims until you achieve 16-20 inch lbs. Then put backlash in spec and run a pattern. If you already have pinion depth established, then pull the carrier and establish the pinion preload which will eventually require torque spec. But you can get real close before having to torque it to check
 
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Yes, 1/4-28 is correct but no reason to purchase them separately if they are hard to find. They usually come with a new strap kit. Any local driveline shop should be able to sell it to you.

1727715495025.png
 
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hosejockey61 said:
Don't worry about getting pinion preload to torque spec if you haven't gotten the backlash correct yet.

Just tighten the pinion nut with no shims until you achieve 16-20 inch lbs. Then put backlash in spec and run a pattern. If you already have pinion depth established, then pull the carrier and establish the pinion preload which will eventually require torque spec. But you can get real close before having to torque it to check
Click to expand...

Understood, my problem has been getting the pinion nut tight enough to check backlash. Hence need for pinion yoke wrench.
 
LJGreg said:
Yes, 1/4-28 is correct but no reason to purchase them separately if they are hard to find. They usually come with a new strap kit. Any local driveline shop should be able to sell it to you.

View attachment 562184
Click to expand...

Thanks for the confirmation. But it is a very different world over here, driveline shops just not a thing. Ordered bolts from Amazon, here today or tomorrow.

PS visited BC for first time this summer, beautiful place you live. Daughter loved it so much she is now looking to spend a few years living there once she graduates.
 

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