A Story of Indecision and Frivolous Spending

[Chris]

I wouldn’t have a fiancé anymore if this was my jeep lol. Seriously need to think on the swap I think. Will be awesome, but is this really worth 8-12k more to throw at the TJ? I know you are taking it to your grave with you today, but what if you change your mind and want something a little bigger so the kiddos can ride with ya someday?

I'm not worried about the kids. My wife and I have already had this conversation about the Jeep not being big enough with 3-kids, but I just told her that means that only two of them will get to ride at a time, it is what it is.

However, I do have to seriously consider cost. I've seen how some of these V8 swaps can get into the ballpark of 12k and up, and that's not worth it to me. If I could do it for 8k, then yes, I think that would be worth it. But 12k is just a bit much. Either way, I'm not pulling the trigger on anything now, so I am giving my time to actually think about this. If any of this happens, it wouldn't be happening until the new year anyways.

I've reached out to a number of builders just to get their opinions and feedback on this.

 

[Chris]

Have you considered just buying a chevy or gmc 1500 (tahoe/yukon) and just stripping the needed parts? Seems like it would really drive down the cost.

I'm not sure if those ones came with the 4L60E transmission or not... I'll have to look more.

 

[Alex01]

What was the tipping point for the LS over the 2.8?

 

[Chris]

What was the tipping point for the LS over the 2.8?

The fact that the 2.8 will cost 15k or more to do right, but the LS can be done for around 8k (depending).

 

[JDS123]

Engine swaps are definitely one of the those things that nickel and dime you to death, especially when you are dropping a GM engine into a Jeep frame. The cost of the engine and transmission are just one half the of the equation. Have to remember about things like a radiator, hoses, engine mounts, oil, spark plugs, dash implementation, driveshafts, transmission mounts, sensors, exhaust, etc...
(But I'm 100% sure you know that already).

This is the main reason I like engines such as the r2.8. As far as I can tell, you buy the kit, drop it in, wire it up, and drive away. I think you might find that you are going to need to re-engineer almost every aspect of your build to make this work out. With an already built Jeep like yours, I wouldn't be surprised if you end up spending more money getting everything to mount and clear than you will getting the engine to fire up.

Has Dave ever installed his mid arm on a Jeep with a 5.3L? Depending on how Dave's suspension is set up, clearing the links against the oil pan would be a major concern for me. That might be an expensive thing to rework if everything is already burned in. Then again, I don't know anything about how Dave's midarm is set up, so it might clear by miles no matter what engine you drop in.

I think you could definitely make this work. It would just take a lot of custom fabrication and replacement of parts you already have on the Jeep. There is a huge thread on Pirate4x4 called 5.3L Jeeps. Lot of great information in that thread. Under the Jeep section, there are plenty of builds that involve dropping LS's into TJ's. If you manage to read through the 200 page, 6 year saga called Dookeys Revenge on Pirate like I did a few years ago, you'll see just how out of hand these things can get. That build is nothing but true insanity.

Definitely a huge decision. I would also want to get rid of that 42rle if I were you.

 

[Chris]

Engine swaps are definitely one of the those things that nickel and dime you to death, especially when you are dropping a GM engine into a Jeep frame. The cost of the engine and transmission are just one half the of the equation. Have to remember about things like a radiator, hoses, engine mounts, oil, spark plugs, dash implementation, driveshafts, transmission mounts, sensors, exhaust, etc...
(But I'm 100% sure you know that already).

This is the main reason I like engines such as the r2.8. As far as I can tell, you buy the kit, drop it in, wire it up, and drive away. I think you might find that you are going to need to re-engineer almost every aspect of your build to make this work out. With an already built Jeep like yours, I wouldn't be surprised if you end up spending more money getting everything to mount and clear than you will getting the engine to fire up.

Has Dave ever installed his mid arm on a Jeep with a 5.3L? Depending on how Dave's suspension is set up, clearing the links against the oil pan would be a major concern for me. That might be an expensive thing to rework if everything is already burned in. Then again, I don't know anything about how Dave's midarm is set up, so it might clear by miles no matter what engine you drop in.

I think you could definitely make this work. It would just take a lot of custom fabrication and replacement of parts you already have on the Jeep. There is a huge thread on Pirate4x4 called 5.3L Jeeps. Lot of great information in that thread. Under the Jeep section, there are plenty of builds that involve dropping LS's into TJ's. If you manage to read through the 200 page, 6 year saga called Dookeys Revenge on Pirate like I did a few years ago, you'll see just how out of hand these things can get.

Definitely a huge decision. I would also want to get rid of that 42rle if I were you.

The R.28 isn't cheap. The engine, wiring harness, and ECU are $9000. But then you need engine mounts, a transmission (since I have an automatic), cooling system components, likely a new fuel pump, custom exhaust work, and whatever else. The guy who did it on this forum recently with his TJ said it came out to be over 15k, which I believe. That R2.8 is far from a simple swap.

Anyways, I talked to Dave today and he said he can do a V8 swap himself. I didn't ask him about the suspension, but I'll need to do that obviously. My biggest issue is that Dave is so busy. He's overworked more than anyone I've ever seen, seriously. That guy doesn't even take a day off. He can do the V8 swap, but it will take a year just to get a quote from him (which he told me he'd get me).

On the other hand, there's another off-road shop here that told me they do these all the time, and it would be somewhere in the ballpark of $8000 for this setup.

It's a huge decision, and one I'm definitely going to have to think about a lot more so that I can weigh my options. The 42RLE turd being gone would make me so happy. I still want an auto, I just don't want that shit box!

 

[Clint Rivera]

You can do this for well over 8k or well under depending on how crazy you get with the build.

Least expensive (the direction I would do) is this:

Rear-ended or t-boned Tahoe / Yukon / Silverado from Copart or similar. ($1-3K depending on miles) Part out everything you won't need. (1999-07 depending on what model)

Swap your geared axles for someone with a 42rle that wants to go up in tire size (plus money on their end). 4.10 is about perfect for the 5.3/ 4l60e and 35" tires.

Forget the Altas (especially the 4 speed) unless you are building a trailer queen.

Do the S10 Np231C / Jeep NP231 hybrid t case with the 6 pinion planet and wide chain. Sell your NP241OR. There is an adapter you will need from AA. (cheap).

Ebay conversion radiator. Inexpensive plate tranny cooler. Use the mechanical fan if you have the room.

Rework the wiring harness yourself (or have $150 tunes do it, plus tune the PCM)

Block hugger headers. Winters shifter.

How good are you at wrenching? If you do this all yourself, you could get this done for $3k or so depending on the deals you get.

If you have a shop do it (and buy a "turn key" engine) I'd seriously consider getting a supercharger instead.

 

[Mike_H]

You're Nucking Futs, dude. Half the time, I think you're trolling the whole board with this ridiculous build.

 

[Chris]

You can do this for well over 8k or well under depending on how crazy you get with the build.

Least expensive (the direction I would do) is this:

Rear-ended or t-boned Tahoe / Yukon / Silverado from Copart or similar. ($1-3K depending on miles) Part out everything you won't need. (1999-07 depending on what model)

Swap your geared axles for someone with a 42rle that wants to go up in tire size (plus money on their end). 4.10 is about perfect for the 5.3/ 4l60e and 35" tires.

Forget the Altas (especially the 4 speed) unless you are building a trailer queen.

Do the S10 Np231C / Jeep NP231 hybrid t case with the 6 pinion planet and wide chain. Sell your NP241OR. There is an adapter you will need from AA. (cheap).

Ebay conversion radiator. Inexpensive plate tranny cooler. Use the mechanical fan if you have the room.

Rework the wiring harness yourself (or have $150 tunes do it, plus tune the PCM)

Block hugger headers. Winters shifter.

How good are you at wrenching? If you do this all yourself, you could get this done for $3k or so depending on the deals you get.

If you have a shop do it (and buy a "turn key" engine) I'd seriously consider getting a supercharger instead.

Okay, so I just spoke with a local off-road shop called Hamm's Offroad who has done a ton of these V8 TJ swaps. His recommendations are almost identical to yours, seriously. He was telling me that they can do the swap turn-key for 8k, and it would take about a month to turn around.

He told me that the parts would be about 7k, which would include the 5.3 engine, 4L60E transmission that is rebuilt, the cooling system, exhaust work, wiring, and everything, the other 2k is about labor.

Does that sound about right, or does this sound like it's too good to be true? These guys have nothing but positive reviews everywhere I look, so they aren't some fly-by-night operation.

This of course assumes I'm keeping the 5.38 gears, which I told him I would, and that I would address the gears after the swap was done. Like you said though, I can find someone with a Rubicon who wants 5.38 gears, and we can just swap axles, and I'll get their 4.10 gears.

His quote was also including re-using my stock 241 transfer case, but I figure I can also address that later once the swap is done and I have more money.

What do you think?

I'm really good at wrenching and have all the tools. I could 100% do this myself, the issue is time. I have hardly and free time to do this, as my 3 little kids take up most of it! Before I was married with kids, I could have done this no problem on my own.

Here's the official estimate he sent:

 

[Clint Rivera]

That sounds like a great deal, honestly. I would want a pretty detailed list on exactly what they are doing. Like, connecting the A/C, cruise control, what they are doing for the shifter, cooling, gauges.

I would also find out how they are doing the transmission to transfercase. I assume since they are rebuilding it, they are doing the AA main shaft and tail-housing adapter. If that's the case, any NP231J would work fine. Your NP242OR would be pretty lame with the 5.3- which I assume you figured out even with your 4.0 / 42rle since you bought a rubicrawler.

You might try the 5.38 for a bit. It would be fun to bake the tires off at every light. I would get a decent muffler though, the RPM's on the freeway would probably give you a headache.

Too bad you don't have the time to do this yourself - it's a pretty fun project. Nothing like firing it up for the first time.

 

[Chris]

That sounds like a great deal, honestly. I would want a pretty detailed list on exactly what they are doing. Like, connecting the A/C, cruise control, what they are doing for the shifter, cooling, gauges.

I would also find out how they are doing the transmission to transfercase. I assume since they are rebuilding it, they are doing the AA main shaft and tail-housing adapter. If that's the case, any NP231J would work fine. Your NP242OR would be pretty lame with the 5.3- which I assume you figured out even with your 4.0 / 42rle since you bought a rubicrawler.

You might try the 5.38 for a bit. It would be fun to bake the tires off at every light. I would get a decent muffler though, the RPM's on the freeway would probably give you a headache.

Too bad you don't have the time to do this yourself - it's a pretty fun project. Nothing like firing it up for the first time.

I'll run those questions by them actually, so thanks for brining them up! He did tell me this includes the air conditioning from the original motor / donor vehicle. The shifter he had mentioned would be a Winters unit.

I know the 241OR would suck with this setup. Maybe I'll ask them about transfer case options if I were to sell the 241OR once they pull it out. How much do you think the NP231C / Jeep NP231 hybrid transfer case would be? I'm assuming I could get $1000 for my 241OR, since it only has 56k miles on it roughly.

The 5.38s will be fine up until highway speeds he said. He told me it would be a blast around town though, which I believe. I think I'll just immediately look for someone with 4.10 Rubicon axles who wants to swap them with mine. That's a pretty good deal for someone, since they'd be saving a ton of money on new gears and the labor. I could even make some money off that!

Also, he said the factory gauge cluster would be re-used since the swap will keep the Jeep PCM, but also use the PCM from the new engine as well.

 

[Chris]

BTW, this is option number two:

https://magnumpowers.com/product/ornare-et/

That thing runs 9-11 psi on a stock 4.0 (safely) with it's own crank driven pulley, and after cooler with liquid cooling, and it's a damn nice setup. I know the guy who builds those kits (he's local to me) and they add an additional 100 ft/lbs of torque and 130hp.

According to Dave (who has one) it's an absolute beast. Makes the 4.0 feel like an entirely different engine.

Of course I'd still be stuck with the 42RLE shit box.

 

[Alex01]

I'll run those questions by them actually, so thanks for brining them up! He did tell me this includes the air conditioning from the original motor / donor vehicle. The shifter he had mentioned would be a Winters unit.

I know the 241OR would suck with this setup. Maybe I'll ask them about transfer case options if I were to sell the 241OR once they pull it out. How much do you think the NP231C / Jeep NP231 hybrid transfer case would be? I'm assuming I could get $1000 for my 241OR, since it only has 56k miles on it roughly.

The 5.38s will be fine up until highway speeds he said. He told me it would be a blast around town though, which I believe. I think I'll just immediately look for someone with 4.10 Rubicon axles who wants to swap them with mine. That's a pretty good deal for someone, since they'd be saving a ton of money on new gears and the labor. I could even make some money off that!

Also, he said the factory gauge cluster would be re-used since the swap will keep the Jeep PCM, but also use the PCM from the new engine as well.

Chris ill give you 1k for your transfer case today if you where selling it lol. 1k is spot on for a normal unit (100k+ miles) and 1.5k is the higher range I see. Best offer I have ever got was $1,250 for a unit with basically the same miles as yours. At the time though I was paying wedding bills and couldn't go over 900 so sadly it didnt work out.

I wouldnt commit to any swap until you get your rig back. For all you know right now one of your tires throw a weight and it will be perfectly fine once your get it corrected.

 

[Chris]

Chris ill give you 1k for your transfer case today if you where selling it lol. 1k is spot on for a normal unit (100k+ miles) and 1.5k is the higher range I see. Best offer I have ever got was $1,250 for a unit with basically the same miles as yours. At the time though I was paying wedding bills and couldn't go over 900 so sadly it didnt work out.

I wouldnt commit to any swap until you get your rig back. For all you know right now one of your tires throw a weight and it will be perfectly fine once your get it corrected.

Yes, I haven't committed to anything yet. Right now I'm just talking. I am shopping around though and getting estimates as well as weighing my options.

I'm not even doing this because of vibration issues... I'm simply doing it because I want more power. I want to be able to get in the TJ, put 4 people in it, go up a steep mountain pass for miles, and be able to hit the accelerator and easily have no problem passing people.

Right now that's not possible, even with the 5.38 gears. It doesn't suck like a 4 cylinder would, but it still struggles more than it would if I had maybe an extra 100hp or so.

If I do end up following through with this, I'll keep you on the number one spot for the transfer case though.

 

[Alex01]

Yes, I haven't committed to anything yet. Right now I'm just talking. I am shopping around though and getting estimates as well as weighing my options.

I'm not even doing this because of vibration issues... I'm simply doing it because I want more power. I want to be able to get in the TJ, put 4 people in it, go up a steep mountain pass for miles, and be able to hit the accelerator and easily have no problem passing people.

Right now that's not possible, even with the 5.38 gears. It doesn't suck like a 4 cylinder would, but it still struggles more than it would if I had maybe an extra 100hp or so.

If I do end up following through with this, I'll keep you on the number one spot for the transfer case though.

If decide to go that route it will be a good excuse for me to drive up and see my brother/sister in laws that live in Corvallis. They are actually talking about living in Salem now.

How difficult is a 32RH swap? Would that and a supercharger fit your needs. I guess it would cost about the same as a v8 swap though so v8 would probably win.

 

[Clint Rivera]

For the NP231 hybrid, you need an S10 NP231 (I paid $100 for one), a NP231J with a SYE, and an adapter - $250 if I remember correctly.

My new Jeep is my first Jeep with a 42RLE. It's not the most exciting trans I've ever had, but it seems like it's a shift kit away from being fine. What issues are you having?

Honestly, if I were you, I would probably do the supercharger and a transgo shift kit. Isn't there a kit using an M38 for around $3500? -unless you really want to make V8 sounds.

 

[bobthetj03]

You guys need to get out and wheel some more! Dang!

 

[Chris]

You guys need to get out and wheel some more! Dang!

You watch the kids and I'll do just that

If decide to go that route it will be a good excuse for me to drive up and see my brother/sister in laws that live in Corvallis. They are actually talking about living in Salem now.

How difficult is a 32RH swap? Would that and a supercharger fit your needs. I guess it would cost about the same as a v8 swap though so v8 would probably win.

Very true! Corvallis is right by us! Salem is a nice place to live.

I wouldn't swap in a 32RH. The wiser swap would be an AW4 from an XJ. Those are made by Toyota and are actually very nice transmissions. They can also be swapped over relatively easily and could probably be done around $3000 including a remanufactured transmission.

For the NP231 hybrid, you need an S10 NP231 (I paid $100 for one), a NP231J with a SYE, and an adapter - $250 if I remember correctly.

My new Jeep is my first Jeep with a 42RLE. It's not the most exciting trans I've ever had, but it seems like it's a shift kit away from being fine. What issues are you having?

Honestly, if I were you, I would probably do the supercharger and a transgo shift kit. Isn't there a kit using an M38 for around $3500? -unless you really want to make V8 sounds.

The 42RLE suffers from inherent overdrive shift issues (ever notice how it's constantly hunting for 4th gear?) due to the stupid .69 overdrive gear ratio, which is something the original engineers themselves (Jim Frens) have pointed out. In addition, it's also very prone to harmonic vibrations with deeper gears as myself and @psrivats have figured out (he's got a very good thread on it on this forum with a lot of technical research).

On my last TJ Rubicon I had the Eaton M90 supercharger you're referring to. It costs $3000 and it turned my 4.0 into a beast... seriously! That was only at 7 psi, which is all you could really run on that unit since it doesn't come with an after cooler or liquid cooling (which is why it's only $3000).

That one I linked to is much more expensive because it has an after cooler (which allows for much higher boost), liquid cooling, and it's own separate pulley drive system that runs of the crank. The Eaton unit they sell didn't have it's own drive pulley either, which is again why it was a lot cheaper.

That supercharger I linked to is the cream of the crop in terms of superchargers for the TJs. I suppose I could probably pair that with my setup and actually be really happy (and save a lot of money). I just need to figure out that vibration.

I'm getting way ahead of myself though, as I'm still waiting for @David Kishpaugh to finish my mid-arm lift and outboard rear shocks.

 

[bobthetj03]

I've raised 2 girls, so I'm good.

 

[zebra12]

If decide to go that route it will be a good excuse for me to drive up and see my brother/sister in laws that live in Corvallis. They are actually talking about living in Salem now.

Good beer and food in Corvallis.