Super Short SYE And Speedo Issues

[Roadhawg011]

I have a weird problem with my speedo, and running a Teraflex Super Short SYE setup, with the tone ring replacing the speedo gear setup.

First the speedo issue......If I stand on the gas in gear, the speedo drops to zero, if I lift off and the engine goes onto compression, speedo jumps to the correct speed.


Doing some research I came across some threads saying it could be the output yoke nut on the tranfser case not being torqued enough. The JB Super Short SYE just has the torque from the yoke clamping the tone wheel in place on the shaft (so I figured the yoke not being tight enough lets the shaft spin inside the tone ring...and maybe lifting off cause enough pressure back to the yoke that clamped the tone ring again) So I thought this was probably my issue....But now I had a look at the install docs of the Teraflex SYE kit and it seems my kit has a dowel on the shaft for locating the tone ring.....So my theory kinda falls apart....unless that dowel managed to snap somehow.


Any ideas? It seems like a mechanical issue. It's VERY replicateable, if I stand on the gas (especially in lower gears) the speedo drops, lift off and it jumps up again. In the higher gears and higher speeds it's less noticeable, almost stops.



(One side note is that I got the SYE installed seperate to the driveshaft install. I drove in in Front wheel drive to the driveshaft place. They then measured and installed the new driveshaft. They did have to loosen the oputput yoke nut, and slide the yoke out slightly to get the bolts for the driveshaft through it and then replace it. But this was a few years ago and I never had speedo issues until now. Maybe that nut has worked loose, but the dowel story still doesnt make sense.


Anyone?

 

[bbaldwin237]

I used a speedohealer with my Teraflex extreme short and don't have any issues, but mine was a 97 with a speedo gear so I had to.

On another note, is your extreme short noisy? I have a kind of gear whine that is pretty bad around 45. I posted a thread yesterday with videos of the sound. Trying to figure out if this is normal for others.

 

[Roadhawg011]

I used a speedohealer with my Teraflex extreme short and don't have any issues, but mine was a 97 with a speedo gear so I had to.

On another note, is your extreme short noisy? I have a kind of gear whine that is pretty bad around 45. I posted a thread yesterday with videos of the sound. Trying to figure out if this is normal for others.

The speed is a little out (33s and 4.56s) but it worked well for like 4 years, not suddenly it's dicking around.

Now that you mention it, after the SYE install I did have a weird whine....but low like a "groan" almost at certain RPM's and under load. I didn't think it was from the transfer case though. Maybe I'll try find it more.

Need to sort out this speedo problem though. I am assuming the case will have to come out to replace that little dowel?

 

[bbaldwin237]

The speed is a little out (33s and 4.56s) but it worked well for like 4 years, not suddenly it's dicking around.

Now that you mention it, after the SYE install I did have a weird whine....but low like a "groan" almost at certain RPM's and under load. I didn't think it was from the transfer case though. Maybe I'll try find it more.

Need to sort out this speedo problem though. I am assuming the case will have to come out to replace that little dowel?

If it was in fact the dowel, you would only have to drain the case and pull the rear yoke and tail housing. But if it did grenade, you would have some bits of metal in there. It should be caught on the magnet, but it would be nice to remove those. You might want to try replacing the speed sensor itself first. It's not exactly cheap, but that doesn't require you to go into the case. Maybe the wiring got hot and damaged or the sensor is just going bad.

Thanks for the input on your SYE. I think I'm just going to live with it at this point.

I have an aunt and a coworker from South Africa. (And as a big fan of the sport of Strongman, South Africa has stepped up big in the past few months. A young man named Rayno Nel won the World's Strongest Man and this weekend Jaco Schoonwinkel got 2nd at a major international show. Big representation for your country on a world stage!)

 

[Roadhawg011]

If it was in fact the dowel, you would only have to drain the case and pull the rear yoke and tail housing. But if it did grenade, you would have some bits of metal in there. It should be caught on the magnet, but it would be nice to remove those. You might want to try replacing the speed sensor itself first. It's not exactly cheap, but that doesn't require you to go into the case. Maybe the wiring got hot and damaged or the sensor is just going bad.

Thanks for the input on your SYE. I think I'm just going to live with it at this point.

I have an aunt and a coworker from South Africa. (And as a big fan of the sport of Strongman, South Africa has stepped up big in the past few months. A young man named Rayno Nel won the World's Strongest Man and this weekend Jaco Schoonwinkel got 2nd at a major international show. Big representation for your country on a world stage!)

Haha yeh I heard about the Strongman thing!! We have some big strong farm boys here, and probably why our Rugby team is so strong too (If anyone is interested in Rugby at all, Documentary called "Chasing the Sun" about how the SA rugby team operates...really good.)


I seriously doubt it's the sensor because the problem is so perfectly related to being on/off the gas. I found another thread where a dude left out the dowel on his Teraflex install (on a different forum) but never came back to post if his speedo worked. Maybe I can just crank on the yoke? Might be silly rather than removing the tailpiece and checking whats going on.

 

[bbaldwin237]

Haha yeh I heard about the Strongman thing!! We have some big strong farm boys here, and probably why our Rugby team is so strong too (If anyone is interested in Rugby at all, Documentary called "Chasing the Sun" about how the SA rugby team operates...really good.)


I seriously doubt it's the sensor because the problem is so perfectly related to being on/off the gas. I found another thread where a dude left out the dowel on his Teraflex install (on a different forum) but never came back to post if his speedo worked. Maybe I can just crank on the yoke? Might be silly rather than removing the tailpiece and checking whats going on.

When I was doing some research into my noise, I found some people saying that their instructions said not to use the dowel. My two kits came with two different sets of instructions, one with a 2015 revision date and the other with a 2016 revision date. Both included using the dowel. The only difference I could notice was the torque spec on the front yoke. I believe without the dowel, the tone ring would be riding on the face of the oil pump.

 

[Roadhawg011]

When I was doing some research into my noise, I found some people saying that their instructions said not to use the dowel. My two kits came with two different sets of instructions, one with a 2015 revision date and the other with a 2016 revision date. Both included using the dowel. The only difference I could notice was the torque spec on the front yoke. I believe without the dowel, the tone ring would be riding on the face of the oil pump.

Sheesh I'm trying to even remember when I did mine!


Im gonna have to open it up I guess. I don;t want to keep driving around with the possibility of a dowel rattling around in there.

 

[bbaldwin237]

Sheesh I'm trying to even remember when I did mine!


Im gonna have to open it up I guess. I don;t want to keep driving around with the possibility of a dowel rattling around in there.

Like I said, there is a magnet in the bottom of the case (as long as it got reinstalled!), but definitely still a hazard.

 

[cpwolf]

Sheesh I'm trying to even remember when I did mine!


Im gonna have to open it up I guess. I don;t want to keep driving around with the possibility of a dowel rattling around in there.

I’d do 3 things…
1. Call Terflex and ask if they’ve seen this issue
2. Torque the nut. Just to make sure. Odd they would need to do that, but whatever, I’d have to see it.
3. Easy to bypass the speedo healer. I’m pretty sure I did that to troubleshoot. Click back in to main harness. Speed won’t be right, but you’re just looking to make sure it still drops with the speed healer not connected.

Just eliminate that. Eliminate the torque.
Talk to Teraflex.

I’d did that before cracking anything open

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Complete wild-ass guess here, but it sounds to me that the application of torque while accelerating is driving the tone ring out of alignment with the sensor, and dropping the signal. Is there anything in the setup which would allow that to happen? Is the position of the pick-up sensor adjustable?

 

[bbaldwin237]

Complete wild-ass guess here, but it sounds to me that the application of torque while accelerating is driving the tone ring out of alignment with the sensor, and dropping the signal. Is there anything in the setup which would allow that to happen? Is the position of the pick-up sensor adjustable?

Not the OP, but I've just had hands on this kit a lot with my issues. Just outboard of the oil pump is the dowel hole. The tone ring slides over that and rides about 1/16" or so off the face of the oil pump. The yoke would prevent the tone ring from moving outwards and off of the dowel. The only way for the tone ring to move would be a broken dowel pin, a loose rear output yoke, or catastrophic failure of the main shaft.

The sensor is not adjustable in any way, but could potentially move out of its hole if the bolt holding it in became loose or missing. It looks nearly identical to a cam position sensor. I would think if that was the case you would be seeing a fluid leak? But maybe not if it was still inserted and just loose since it does have an o-ring.

 

[Roadhawg011]

I’d do 3 things…
1. Call Terflex and ask if they’ve seen this issue
2. Torque the nut. Just to make sure. Odd they would need to do that, but whatever, I’d have to see it.
3. Easy to bypass the speedo healer. I’m pretty sure I did that to troubleshoot. Click back in to main harness. Speed won’t be right, but you’re just looking to make sure it still drops with the speed healer not connected.

Just eliminate that. Eliminate the torque.
Talk to Teraflex.

I’d did that before cracking anything open

I don't have any speedo healer or anything. Just the Teraflex tone wheel which plugs directly into the TJ plug like a normal speedo gear would. I'll try mail Teraflex though.

Complete wild-ass guess here, but it sounds to me that the application of torque while accelerating is driving the tone ring out of alignment with the sensor, and dropping the signal. Is there anything in the setup which would allow that to happen? Is the position of the pick-up sensor adjustable?

Yeh definitely something to do with torque. I have a feeling my engine or transmission mount is/are pretty worn as I have what feels like a lot of "slop" in the drivetrain (all u-joints and that are good though). I can only think that the yoke bolt has gotten slightly loose and allowing the tone wheel to slip AND the dowel has moved. (if there is one in there)
Here's the setup, from the install PDF

The guys that installed it obviously left out these bolts, and the driveshaft place had to slide the yoke out slightly to install their own (not 12 spline, regular bolts which make it a PITA to undo). Maybe they didn't torque it enough re-installing. But as I said, that was years ago.

 

[bbaldwin237]

I don't have any speedo healer or anything. Just the Teraflex tone wheel which plugs directly into the TJ plug like a normal speedo gear would. I'll try mail Teraflex though.




Yeh definitely something to do with torque. I have a feeling my engine or transmission mount is/are pretty worn as I have what feels like a lot of "slop" in the drivetrain (all u-joints and that are good though). I can only think that the yoke bolt has gotten slightly loose and allowing the tone wheel to slip AND the dowel has moved. (if there is one in there)
Here's the setup, from the install PDF
View attachment 628851


The guys that installed it obviously left out these bolts, and the driveshaft place had to slide the yoke out slightly to install their own (not 12 spline, regular bolts which make it a PITA to undo). Maybe they didn't torque it enough re-installing. But as I said, that was years ago.

View attachment 628853

It could be that they didn't reapply thread locker after they broke it loose to add the bolts and it has worked it's way loose over the past 4 years. If it's loose enough for the tone ring to move, you should be able to slide it back and forth on the splines by hand. But if it's just a little loose and allowing the tone ring to only move by a fractional amount, you may not. I'm not sure what the tolerance on the tone ring and sensor are. Like would a movement of 1mm throw it off or would it take a greater change?

 

[Roadhawg011]

More info.....
I got my kit off Qudratec. If I go on Quadratec and find the kit and go to the install PDF there.....No mention of any dowel pin. Just the yoke torqued to 180ftlbs.
https://www.quadratec.com/sites/default/files/installation_instructions/50995.pdf

So maybe It is just the nut that's worked slightly loose. If there;'s no dowel it would only need to be slightly loose to allow the shaft to rotate without the ring...and it'd also make sense why at high speed, once EVERYTHING is rotating really fast anyway the speedo reads fine. I think I need to just crank down on it and hope for the best.

 

[bbaldwin237]

More info.....
I got my kit off Qudratec. If I go on Quadratec and find the kit and go to the install PDF there.....No mention of any dowel pin. Just the yoke torqued to 180ftlbs.
https://www.quadratec.com/sites/default/files/installation_instructions/50995.pdf

So maybe It is just the nut that's worked slightly loose. If there;'s no dowel it would only need to be slightly loose to allow the shaft to rotate without the ring...and it'd also make sense why at high speed, once EVERYTHING is rotating really fast anyway the speedo reads fine. I think I need to just crank down on it and hope for the best.

Looks like something they added later. Maybe they found this problem. Hopefully it will be that simple for you. Though you may want to zip the nut off, clean the threads and apply new thread lock rather than just tighten it down.

The newer style tone ring is a bit different. You can see the notch for the dowel pin as well as the hole in the shaft for the pin. I still have the one I replaced sitting in a box in the garage so I was able to grab these.

 

[Roadhawg011]

Looks like something they added later. Maybe they found this problem. Hopefully it will be that simple for you. Though you may want to zip the nut off, clean the threads and apply new thread lock rather than just tighten it down.

The newer style tone ring is a bit different. You can see the notch for the dowel pin as well as the hole in the shaft for the pin. I still have the one I replaced sitting in a box in the garage so I was able to grab these.
View attachment 629060
View attachment 629061

Thanks for the pics man!

 

[Roadhawg011]

Ok. Mailed Teraflex. They seem to think I would have the dowel setup, seeing as I bought the kit from Quadratec in 2017. I'm not so sure though.

They also suggested unplugging the sensor and feeling for free play on the sensor ring/tone wheel. (WHY didn't I think of that!?)

I managed to do that this weekend. The tone ring is loose, but not very. I cant rotate it with the tip of my finger through the sensor hole (Insert the ol' "Come hither" motion joke here). BUT if I roll the jeep forward to a point where I can stick my finger into the "gap" of the tone wheel and not hit the "tooth", and then let the jeep roll back I can stop the tone wheel from turning with the output shaft. So I figure this is my problem.

Now I just need to decide whether to just crank the output yoke nut down and pray, or remove the tail piece and actually see what's going on in there.


Additionally I think I mentioned that I had the SYE installed by a Jeep workshop, and then drove in Front Wheel Drive for a couple days and had the driveshaft made up and installed at a driveshaft specialist place. When they installed the SYE they left the fancy 12point bolts out of the yoke. So the driveshaft place just used regular hex bolts. For the life of me I cannot get a wrench onto the heads of these bolts. There's too much of the yoke in the way to get a ring spanner onto them and pretty much the same with the open end wrench. I might have to take it to the driveshaft place and let them try remove the DS.