Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts

Where to get 12V power (2002 TJ bastard)

Coachgeo

TJ Enthusiast
Original poster
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Apr 11, 2021
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307
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Mid/Southern OH
Since this is convoluted. and need multiple 12v source options for each item since some may be disconnected by conversion.... thusly am starting own thread.

photo's are my under hood box and cover. (2002... or is it 03. I forget) Will post this first then come back and add pictures

Anyway. Here goes. Ohhh. and to confuse things from get go:
A. This Jeep was converted to a diesel by previous owner. Their grafting of Mercedes Glow Plug wiring into the Jeep system worked. Dash Worked except Tach. I am swapping this clapped out engine for a rebuilt one of same kind/model mercedes. Started in Nov. but got to cold. Restarted project when retired in June.
B. there is no CPS (crank position sensor) it is cut off. Previously it worked sorta. CPS was there but just dangling off to the side and not on the Jeep Transmission. I cut it off since it just jangle dangled by the hot exhaust. Can reconnect if it needs it to make the computer happy (or jumper it ... suggestion how?) Computer only gives me dash stuff except Tach.

First-. embarrassed to say do not know how many key positions there are on the TJ. Actually searched the inter-webs but didn't find it.... is there even an accessory? Ill Include it just in case. For lack of not knowing the TJ world Terms will use:
. SC (Start/Crank),
. RD (Run Driving),
. Asc (Accessories operate in keyed Asc. position, when engine is not running, but NOT when key is off) ,
. Off (off- key in or out)

Second/Third. Don't care if tap into a Fuse slot or remove an unused relay and tap slot(s) there. Do not need to go thru a Jeep fuse. Do not Want to piggy back on a functioning relay such as there is a fuel pump relay in Power box still. Do not know why; there was no 12v pump in conversion. Was it there to keep computer happy? Previous builder just left it as a spare? he was lazy??. I could remove it and tap something there??

Four- I am adding some fuel pump(s) this time though... again it had no elec. fuel pump in previous running diesel conversion arrangement. Engine has a mechanical lift pump. I could; if it would still keep computer happy, remove Jeep fuel pump relay and use one of its slots as a Tap in point... or off its fuse home???

Five- All the timers I speak of below have a relay built in.

Six- the two timer's i am adding do NOT need positive power in key off position to keep memory of their settings (supposedly). Chinese directions hard to decipher butt other's seem to report that this is the case.

Seven- BTW: Am putting a separate inline-fuse for each below so only 12v positive (or negative?) is needed at the right Key switch position(s) for each device below:

Device One- (Mercedes glow plug relay / diesel swap). PRIORITY. NEED THIS NOW. It has two hot wires. I would wire this back like it was. butttt. the so called PERMANENT ink faded on my labels and I can no longer read them. Thought I had pictures. but nooo. (did I say Im stupid to have thought double redundancy would be enough)
1. Wire ONE is to be wired to +12v at key RD position- assuming RD is prior to SC in key position like it always is duhhh. In normal use; this MB relay.... with key in position to power it; its own internal timer does it's Glow hot plug thing. At chime. you move key to SC to start the engine or I can push a button to have it start the timer again on extra cold days that I want to glow the plugs twice. It's internal timer will switch off relay depowering the Glow Plugs.....if I understand correctly how this works there is more to it (there is thermal switch in there too). Do NOT want this powered in Asc key position or Off position.
2. Wire TWO provides 12v during SC . This delay's (skips past?) the timer. Timer resumes after engine starts (if any time left) and key is back to RD. Likely OEM mercedes did this way cause all their other items switched off during crank to leave battery only getting draw from starter and glow plugs???. Do NOT want this powered 12v in Asc key position (jamming to tunes looking at a sun setting atop a mountain) or Off key position.
3. It has a ground wire but mercedes did not use that as a switchable thang.

Device Two- Inline Electric Primer lift pump / Emergency drive lift pump. Same pump for either. Once best power source found based on below , power will first go to a timer I can program. In normal use this likely will only be set to run few seconds. UNLESS my mechanical lift pump goes kaput. If so then will bypass mechanical lift pump, with emergency pre-made fuel line I can install as needed. In that cause I will just set timer to let the pump run for hours when key is in position as below ..
1. Wire ONE RD key position, NOT Asc, NOT Off key position. YES or NO on SC??? its got fuel filter and few larger than average inline filters..... so maybe do not need on SC??? your thoughts??? buttt. then again if have to bypass mechanical lift pump for some reason then does that change anything???
- Technically. what will really happen here is in the correct key position based on above. it will send 12v to a step up converter. That step up converter will then send 24v to 24v timer and then... 24v fuel pump. Long story short... this was part of what (I thought) I had to do. (At time) Could only find a 24v pump that allowed full free flow thru it even when this pump is OFF AND also had 3/8 ID fittings so not to restrict fuel flow to something below specs of MB lift pump. . Most electric pumps do NOT allow much; if any, fuel to flow thru them when they are not powered.
2. Wire TWO is ground: The step up has a ground wire .. so could complete 12v path via Negative connection to something in power Box.

Device Three- This one a 12v generic fuel pump controlled via a 12v timer. It operates ONLY to clean/Polish the fuel in the tank. NOT connected to engine. Just pulls fuel from tank thru a filter AND water separator then right back to the tank. Will likely run 15min... thoughh.... I may put a 12v solar panel on Jeep and let it run 30 min. soo
1. Till I get a solar panel. Key in RD position only activating the timer. Disconnected in Off, SC and Asc. Most my uses of Jeep are 15min drive or more.
2. AFTER install solar panel.
A) option- Key in RD activates timer set to 30min. Key in Off does not stop timer if 30min not up when stop vehicle. Similar to electric radiator cooling fans. So would that be a second power wire from???? that bypasses into #1? for this device?? or is that even possible? Purchase/add in a different kind of relay like ones used on elec. radiator fan and power that relay from the key RD?? Not sure how stay on thermal switched fans get powred.
(B) option- If (A) is not possible. or if it is just easier way to go about it..... technically could use the timer to have it run 30 min every two days??? for example. Sooooooo that would mean Swap this devices #1 power to full time power leaving the timer to control the on/off of pump. BTW chose 30 min cause that is about how long it would take to cycle full tank of fuel thru the polish filter. yeah I know. over kill.
3. Wire THREE is ground and I did run one all the way up to the Power Center... so could disconnect Negative as an option

PS- this will be daily driver rain snow or storm. And/or be pulled behind live in camper. (next HUGE project)

Notes and Reminder again: No CPS but can put it back. Computer ASD (auto shut down) is there but I do NOT know if it is disabled on underside of this power box or what). I will be adding a Winch. The alternator has a remote regulator not connected to Jeep computer.
PowerCntrTJCvr.jpg


PowerCntrTJ.jpg
 
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ahh. my bad. I see that there is two different type replays used in the TJ. All five pin though. just pins in different location between the large size relay type and the small size relay type.
 
think I over complicated this. so in simplification for right now. I need

Four hots all together:

Three of them 12v hots ONLY when key in Run/Drive.
- I dont care if I tap into a fuse or an empty relay female spot as shown in pictures.
- Rather use two or three available spots to get the hots from the power center cause; one is unfused but the device says it does not require a fuse. (glow plug relay) so it should be by itself. The other two; each will have their own inline fuse. Together the two will pull less than 20amps at max

One 12v hot ONLY when key in Start/Crank.... again I don't care if I tap into a fuse or an empty relay spot as shown in pictures.
 
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The run/drive power shouldn't be hard to find with a tester, there's lots of stuff that stays on when the key is in run position, then use it to trigger relays for the power. For start/crank can't you tie into the starter relay trigger to energize another relay? Can your 3 hot when running circuits also be energized during cranking? The GPs can use hot in run power due to the GP module timeout correct?

Can your 3 hot when running circuits also be energized during cranking? The GPs can use hot in run power due to the GP module timeout correct?
technically they could??? Would rather not zap power to these cheap chinese timers more than I have too..... so which is better to activate them under both key positions or just run/drive? Particularly since it will sit in run/drive for a moment while GP are glowing till turn key to Start/crank. Then again the primer pump will likely be done prior to GP timer goes off.
The GPs can use hot in run power due to the GP module timeout correct?
That is my understanding.

all the devices have a relay built into them, so I can go direct to them from best hot spot.
 
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Not to derail the thread, but which MBZ Diesel engine? OM617A?

yes. it was already in it (why I bought it) am now putting rebuilt OM617A. Unfortuantely all the tags I put on wires to mark what is what/goes where- faded over the winter.
 
Been outside - made custom probes to hold in the Power box while I ran key in the Jeep..... then promptly dropped one made to fit in a Relay socket female and lost it on the ground. grrrr... back inside for another question though and did another search while at it. found this on another forum. 01 TJ discussion.

does this generically confer with an 03 you think?



" Depending on how much power you need, there is switched power in the PDC (fuse/relay box in front of the battery).

Here are the choices. All are for relay control so not for high power output. All are 10 amp & get power from the fuse block behind the glove box.

Key on but not acc from fuse 7 a violet/white wire to the ALB relay if wired.

Key on & to start but also not acc from fuse 11 a red/light green wire going to the a/c compressor relay if wired.

Either may, or may not, have wires to the relay sockets if your TJ is not equipped with these options.

Then key on & start, not acc is fuse 12 a dark blue wire that goes to the ASD & fuel pump relays as well as the PCM.

You do not want to overload any of these circuits, but especially fuse 12. If blow that fuse, the engine will not start or run."

(credit: https://www.wranglerforum.com/threads/01tj-ignition-switched-power.2453597/ )

PDC= Power Distribution Center
ALB = Anti lock Brakes
ASD = Auto Shut Down
 
been looking for this. came across on accident

My interpretation of key switch positions are:

Key turned toward dash from home/off:

- OFF (home position- Key will remove)
- Steering Unlock (and apparently nothing else,,,, but allows for flat tow?
- RUN/on
- START (momentary)

key turned to driver from home position
- ACC/on

That sound right? Will retry when I go back outside.
 
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@B1Toad
what is the typical hot female of the two different kind of relay sockets in that thing.... you happen to know?

Well terminal 30 on the standard ISO automotive relay is normally where you connect battery power, but you are likely to find most of those to be hot all the time. 85&86 are the coil wires with 86 being the one that normally receives switched power to activate the coil, however these are really interchangeable and on some relays the ground will be switched instead.

So if I understand you correctly you are looking for circuits to run to your devices direct, you don't need relays because they are already in place on the devices? If that is the case you only need power to trigger your device's relays which as I said before is simple, the power draw is next to nothing for a relay coil so it can come from anywhere. You could look for an 86 terminal that gets hot with "run" and use it for all 3 of your "hot in run" circuits and tap the starter relay trigger side for your "hot while cranking" circuit. They are just energizing relays.

On the other hand, if I mis-understood you and you need big power to run the devices then you will need to look for some #30 sockets in the PDC that get live with the key on and while cranking, or just add relays and power #30 from the battery and #86 from switched circuits like I described in the prior paragraph.

I guess the big question is, do the circuits in question already have power to them but need a way to switch them on and off, or do they not have power run to them at all?

edit: reading post #8 it looks like you just need relay trigger power, so get it anywhere. You will not overload a circuit with relay coil power, it's like .2 amps for each relay.
 
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been looking for this. came across on accident


My interpretation

Key switch positions are:

Key turned toward dash from home/off:

- OFF (home position- Key will remove)
- RUN/on
- START (momentary)

key turned to driver from home position
- ACC/on

That sound right? Will retry when I go back outside.

That's how mine works
 
Well .....
wellll... ok you made me look at the PDF on the chinese timers again. think I interpreted answers to questions I put out on Amazon about the timers internal memory very wrong. Judging by the wire diagram options.... appears they need full time voltage to keep the memory alive so that changes things. Ill just wire them direct (that is easy) and use the button on the timer for now to manually turn them on/off AND get the solar panel ASAP so not to drain battery.
that does not change GP relay though. .... or I'll just say Fauk the timers and sent them back. just install my own relays and switches

Does not change Glow Plug stuff though..

Mercedes glow plug relay / diesel swap). PRIORITY. NEED THIS NOW. It has two hot wires. ..... Wires #1 and #2 are based on research about MB GP relay

1. Wire ONE is to be wired to +12v at key RD position- ...In normal use; MB relay: with key in position to power it; its own internal timer does it's Glow hot plug thing. At chime. you move key to SC to start the engine or I can push a button to have it start the timer again on extra cold days that I want to glow the plugs twice. It's internal timer will switch off relay depowering the Glow Plugs.....if I understand correctly how this works there is more to it (there is thermal switch in there too). Do NOT want this powered in Acc key position or Off position.
2. Wire TWO provides 12v during SC . This delay's (skips past?) the timer. Timer resumes after engine starts (if any time left) and key is back to RD. ... Do NOT want this powered 12v in Acc key position...
3. It has a ground wire but mercedes did not use that as a switchable thang.
 
Ok if you look at my pic where I am pointing at a tap into my PDC, that slot is hot in run. If I recall this was for a heated 02 sensor relay for CA models. So you can connect your GPR wire #1 there if there are connectors in your 2002, mine is a 2000. (the red wire you see was used for after market DRLs).

Then find the wire that triggers your starter relay and connect your GPR wire #2 to that . I suspect that second circuit is there to keep the GPR timer from re-setting itself when cranking as it would lose power from the run circuit during cranking, causing it to initiate another timed cycle once the engine starts.

Another thing I would do is connect an LED to your GPR output and run it to the dash so you'll know just when the GPs are on and when they are off. This can prevent a mishap where the GPs stay on and eventually overheat and burn out at the least, or disintegrate and drop pieces into the cylinders at worse.

PDC.jpg
 
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@B1Toad so from that site. in a 5pin 30 should be full time +12v and either 87 gets switched by the other pins... I got two relays in the box that are full power at the outer most 87. will go back to see which ones so I dont speak wrong. I guess those actually switch the negative??

Anyway. apparently I dont want to tap those anyway. that site says 5 pin are for low draw. for the GP maybe I need high draw? which takes me to the 4 pin HBL (whatever that is/was) and the blank one listed on the cover. which I assume means there is nothing there. Just dont know if either of them are switched by key.
 
Another thing I would do is connect an LED to your GPR output and run it to the dash so you'll know just when the GPs are on and when they are off. This can prevent a mishap where the GPs stay on and eventually overheat and burn out at the least, or disintegrate and drop pieces into the cylinders at worse.

View attachment 555166

just saw this. great help. Person who did the conversion put in a GP light already.
 
Just to be clear, your GP module also has a fat wire for battery power in addition to the wires #1 & #2 that you describe correct?
 
Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts