Is my rear axle bearing shot?

[hear]

Had a slow motion Rube Goldberg fail earlier today.

Bought a new rear bumper, which wouldn’t allow the spare tire to clear. While deciding what to do about that, I left the spare off. Literally the FIRST time I’ve driven it without the spare I go to park it and rear driver tire is gushing air. Quickly drive back home to put the spare on, only to discover that I think my rear axle bearing is shot.

I thought I noticed a little “camber reset” when I jacked it up, but when I went to test if the lugs were tight I noticed some in/out play. It’s hard to hear over the jack on the driveway, but you can hear the back and forth clunk.

Other possibly related symptoms: steering wheel has a tight little vibration around 40mph that is new, and there’s a noise I can best describe as a low pitch creak or groan that’s really only noticeable at low speeds particularly when I’m pulling back into my garage.

It’s a Dana 44 if that matters. Is my diagnosis correct?

 

[Blackjack]

That is a little more endplay then I would like to see on a 44. So a new bearing and seal might be in order but I would give the retainer plate a thorough inspection first.

 

[Vtx531]

A little side to side clearance is normal

 

[hear]

That is a little more endplay then I would like to see on a 44. So a new bearing and seal might be in order but I would give the retainer plate a thorough inspection first.

If my retainer plate is in bad shape, what harm can I do by driving it in the meanwhile?

 

[Jerry Bransford]

If my retainer plate is in bad shape, what harm can I do by driving it in the meanwhile?

There's not much to a retainer plate but there are two different types. One has a flange out of the center opening and that flange is required to keep the seal seated when you have disk brakes. If you have drum brakes the flange is supposed to be flat.

For rear disk brakes.

For rear drum brakes.

 

[hear]

Anybody have any experience with this retainer plate? I just read a bunch of stuff on a Scout forum about end play & seals etc. Dunno if it applies to our axles or not, but he sure seems to know what he's talking about. And I don't know enough to know if he's right.

http://betterscoutparts.com/t-a-b-o-r-plate/

 

[Blackjack]

If my retainer plate is in bad shape, what harm can I do by driving it in the meanwhile?

Is it leaking?

Anybody have any experience with this retainer plate? I just read a bunch of stuff on a Scout forum about end play & seals etc. Dunno if it applies to our axles or not, but he sure seems to know what he's talking about. And I don't know enough to know if he's right.

http://betterscoutparts.com/t-a-b-o-r-plate/

View attachment 372706

Way overkill and too much money.

 

[Jerry Bransford]

Anybody have any experience with this retainer plate? I just read a bunch of stuff on a Scout forum about end play & seals etc. Dunno if it applies to our axles or not, but he sure seems to know what he's talking about. And I don't know enough to know if he's right.

http://betterscoutparts.com/t-a-b-o-r-plate/

View attachment 372706

Way overkill. I bet it's a hot seller with that red powdercoating though.

 

[mrblaine]

Anybody have any experience with this retainer plate? I just read a bunch of stuff on a Scout forum about end play & seals etc. Dunno if it applies to our axles or not, but he sure seems to know what he's talking about. And I don't know enough to know if he's right.

http://betterscoutparts.com/t-a-b-o-r-plate/

View attachment 372706

Fair warning, I did not read anything about what the maker of that retainer had to say. What I do know is anyone who makes something like that for a 44 has a bunch of misconceptions about what is actually going on there for our uses.

If you look at the TJ 44 retainer, when it is tightened down with the housing end bolts, it deforms from the seal surface inward to the backing plate to provide preload on the bearing and guessing by how much we see issues with burnt up bearings, the factory pretty much got that right. The other thing to note is the distance from the edge of the large hole to the edge of the smaller bolt holes. That is a very short distance that the retainer is deflecting in which means there is a very high level of retention. I also strongly suspect that red plate won't work with TJ seals due to the very much smaller hole interfering with the seal lip. In other words, he tried to solve a problem we don't have.

The only caveat I'll toss out there is oil bath tapered roller bearings can handle a much higher amount of preload that greased ones do. That may be how he is getting away with that part, the other part about the small hole would need to be put against a seal to find out.

 

[mrblaine]

Is it leaking?


Way overkill and too much money.

Wonder how long that has been around? I made a bunch of heavy duty ones for disc conversions back around 2000 or so.

 

[hear]

Fair warning, I did not read anything about what the maker of that retainer had to say. What I do know is anyone who makes something like that for a 44 has a bunch of misconceptions about what is actually going on there for our uses.

I think the only real point he made that you might be interested in is that in some Scout forum posts he contends there should be zero end play on a tapered roller bearing. No idea if that is correct or not. But if the spec is 0.015" of end play I'm pretty sure I'm outside of that regardless.

 

[hear]

But moreover, replacing the retainer plate requires replacing the bearing, is that correct? Ive seen references to both Timken set 9 & 10...can you gentlemen please confirm which it is? Also do we have a recommendation on part # for the seal?

 

[Blackjack]

Fair warning, I did not read anything about what the maker of that retainer had to say. What I do know is anyone who makes something like that for a 44 has a bunch of misconceptions about what is actually going on there for our uses.

If you look at the TJ 44 retainer, when it is tightened down with the housing end bolts, it deforms from the seal surface inward to the backing plate to provide preload on the bearing and guessing by how much we see issues with burnt up bearings, the factory pretty much got that right. The other thing to note is the distance from the edge of the large hole to the edge of the smaller bolt holes. That is a very short distance that the retainer is deflecting in which means there is a very high level of retention. I also strongly suspect that red plate won't work with TJ seals due to the very much smaller hole interfering with the seal lip. In other words, he tried to solve a problem we don't have.
View attachment 372735
The only caveat I'll toss out there is oil bath tapered roller bearings can handle a much higher amount of preload that greased ones do. That may be how he is getting away with that part, the other part about the small hole would need to be put against a seal to find out.

He requires the use of the 9912 National seal to act as a collapsible spacer versus the Spicer seal that relies on the plates deflection to provide preload.

Wonder how long that has been around? I made a bunch of heavy duty ones for disc conversions back around 2000 or so.

Not sure. I know that the old school Jeep guys I knew in Oregon used to play around with stuff like this in the 90s.

 

[Blackjack]

I think the only real point he made that you might be interested in is that in some Scout forum posts he contends there should be zero end play on a tapered roller bearing. No idea if that is correct or not. But if the spec is 0.015" of end play I'm pretty sure I'm outside of that regardless.

Ideally if you can achieve zero endplay with no preload that would be ideal but we live a the real world here and .01 or less gets the job done.

But moreover, replacing the retainer plate requires replacing the bearing, is that correct? Ive seen references to both Timken set 9 & 10...can you gentlemen please confirm which it is? Also do we have a recommendation on part # for the seal?

Yes. There are 9 inch Ford aftermarket plates that are slotted to allow the plate to be installed without replacing the bearing but I have not seen one for the Dana axles. National 9912 is a good seal choice.

 

[mrblaine]

He requires the use of the 9912 National seal to act as a collapsible spacer versus the Spicer seal that relies on the plates deflection to provide preload.

Same as the Timken 9912S? If so, the collapsed height is the same as the normal height of the Timken and Spicer 9912.

Not sure. I know that the old school Jeep guys I knew in Oregon used to play around with stuff like this in the 90s.

If one wants to add something, it sure is cheaper to double up the normal retainers.

 

[mrblaine]

I think the only real point he made that you might be interested in is that in some Scout forum posts he contends there should be zero end play on a tapered roller bearing. No idea if that is correct or not. But if the spec is 0.015" of end play I'm pretty sure I'm outside of that regardless.

There should be zero in my world but I don't want the normal type ribbed seal moving back and forth in the seal bore. There isn't much sealing there with the little ribs around the perimeter so I want them to be still. The other thing to look at is if the rig has aftermarket axles and is being run on drum brakes. It was common for awhile to stock a single retainer and use it for both. For drums, they would flip the disc retainer around backwards. The problem with that is the seal edge lives in the radius then and will wear quickly and develop some end play.

 

[hear]

Thanks for the discussion on the seal, what about the bearing itself?

 

[Blackjack]

Same as the Timken 9912S? If so, the collapsed height is the same as the normal height of the Timken and Spicer 9912.

If one wants to add something, it sure is cheaper to double up the normal retainers.

So he claims the National 9912 is .425 and collapses to .386 when installed with his plate where the Spicer seal is .375.

 

[Blackjack]

Thanks for the discussion on the seal, what about the bearing itself?

Timken. Depending on where you purchase it will be referred to as SET10 or A10.

 

[mrblaine]

So he claims the National 9912 is .425 and collapses to .386 when installed with his plate where the Spicer seal is .375.

I don't know if I am interested enough to double check that and ruin a Timken 9912S.