Steering system functionality

[mrblaine]

Because they’re cammed bolts with offset washers, for adjusting castor?
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How about now?

Point of all that is the washer, eccentric or otherwise doesn't stop the bolt from moving in the slot. That is 100% the function of the bolt and bolt sleeve in the control arm joint. The above damage was caused by a loose or incorrectly tightened bolt that allowed the arm joint bolt sleeve to move.

 

[Marklar1983]

How about now?
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Point of all that is the washer, eccentric or otherwise doesn't stop the bolt from moving in the slot. That is 100% the function of the bolt and bolt sleeve in the control arm joint. The above damage was caused by a loose or incorrectly tightened bolt that allowed the arm joint bolt sleeve to move.

Edit for posterity: It’s all about the bolt torque, the washers just make adjustment easier.

Exactly! It’s a system. If part of the system is wrong, it doesn’t work as designed.

If the bolts are torqued to exactly factory spec, but the offset washers are left out, it expect it wouldn’t fare much better.

 

[mrblaine]

Exactly! It’s a system. If part of the system is wrong, it doesn’t work as designed.

If the bolts are torqued to exactly factory spec, but the offset washers are left out, it expect it wouldn’t fare much better.

No, the system or fact that it is one has exactly zero to do with how bolts work. The washer only functions to locate the bolt in the slot temporarily for adjustment or centering until the bolt is tightened properly. I do however, find it particularly troubling that you can clearly see the result of the washer moving back and forth outside the slot which destroyed the horseshoes for the cams and still insist that the washers have anything to do with it.

Slot, round hole, oval hole, or square hole has no effect on bolt stabilization. The only thing that matters is the clamping force developed by stretching the bolt when it is properly tightened. Assuming there is at least the amount of faying surface contact equivalent to the factory bolt sleeve in the slot.

 

[Marklar1983]

No, the system or fact that it is one has exactly zero to do with how bolts work. The washer only functions to locate the bolt in the slot temporarily for adjustment or centering until the bolt is tightened properly. I do however, find it particularly troubling that you can clearly see the result of the washer moving back and forth outside the slot which destroyed the horseshoes for the cams and still insist that the washers have anything to do with it.

Slot, round hole, oval hole, or square hole has no effect on bolt stabilization. The only thing that matters is the clamping force developed by stretching the bolt when it is properly tightened. Assuming there is at least the amount of faying surface contact equivalent to the factory bolt sleeve in the slot.

Yep, you’re right. I just had to think of all the adjustable tools and shit that rely on a thumbscrew in a slot for holding position. Not sure how I got so deep in the weeds on this.

 

[mrblaine]

Yep, you’re right. I just had to think of all the adjustable tools and shit that rely on a thumbscrew in a slot for holding position. Not sure how I got so deep in the weeds on this.

This always goes better with folks who have adjusted an alternator on an old Chevy motor.

And don't beat yourself up too much. We've been correcting the bolt hole size fallacy for decades and rarely does it make any difference to correct what folks want to believe.

 

[Marklar1983]

FWiW, it is well known than the cam bolts disappeared from the factory installation early in the TJ run. It is also fairly common for people to add them later.

I did not know that. Confirmed per the FSM (emphasis mine): “If the vehicle is equipped with a cam bolt service package…”

 

[Rickyd]

No, the system or fact that it is one has exactly zero to do with how bolts work. The washer only functions to locate the bolt in the slot temporarily for adjustment or centering until the bolt is tightened properly. I do however, find it particularly troubling that you can clearly see the result of the washer moving back and forth outside the slot which destroyed the horseshoes for the cams and still insist that the washers have anything to do with it.

Slot, round hole, oval hole, or square hole has no effect on bolt stabilization. The only thing that matters is the clamping force developed by stretching the bolt when it is properly tightened. Assuming there is at least the amount of faying surface contact equivalent to the factory bolt sleeve in the slot.

And the resulting friction from tightening said bolt.having a flat,relatively clean surface helps too

 

[mrblaine]

And the resulting friction from tightening said bolt.having a flat,relatively clean surface helps too

Friction yes but I can make a strong case that smooth and clean are not nearly as critical. In fact, if one side is sorta smooth and the other side is hardened and knurled, I suspect the friction + mechanical deformation can produce more resistance to joint failure than just smooth and flat.

Or at least the ends of some of the leaf spring bushing sleeves shows that to be possible.

 

[Window&DoorWhore]

Touched the wheels against a curb to simulate gyroscopic force that 33x12.5 tires may exert rolling down the road. Ball joints are old but no play. Wheels have enough play for the front wheel bearings. Gearbox is old but not worn out. Aside from putting it on an alignment rack this is all I know to look at

 

[OldBuzzard]

Touched the wheels against a curb to simulate gyroscopic force that 33x12.5 tires may exert rolling down the road. Ball joints are old but no play. Wheels have enough play for the front wheel bearings. Gearbox is old but not worn out. Aside from putting it on an alignment rack this is all I know to look at

Need to get some light under there. Need to take a closeup video of each joint, particularly each end of the track bar, and the lower end of the drag link. You're looking for pretty small freeplay movements.

Can't even see the track bar in this video, and I think I see rocking of the drag-to-tierod joint (which I believe was mentioned above somewhere).

 

[John’o]

I know. My example refutes your argument that the bolt was wiggly because it was smaller than the hole.

Talking two different things. The bolt doesn’t move. Clamping force. Yes. Got it. The 5/8 bushing pivots around the 1/2 bolt. There is an 1/8” of slop.

 

[jjvw]

Talking two different things. The bolt doesn’t move. Clamping force. Yes. Got it. The 5/8 bushing pivots around the 1/2 bolt. There is an 1/8” of slop.

No. Why is the bushing loose and pivoting around the bolt? Try again. Keep up.

 

[Rickyd]

No. Why is the bushing loose and pivoting around the bolt? Try again. Keep up.

Only way that could happen is if there was no sleeve in the bushing

 

[Window&DoorWhore]

Heads up, I’m long winded.

Stopped by the shop yesterday for a test drive and a discussion. Despite my coming at him as if he discarded good parts and sold me junk he was happy to go over it with me and have an opportunity to make me happy with the work performed by his shop. I learned the tie rod ends on rough country steering now are not regular ball joints and only offer rotational movement and don’t articulate like a ball joint or a heim joint. I can’t be experiencing tie rod roll if the tie rod isn’t able to roll. Tie rod stays on the same plane as the front axle. I was reminded about the Currie steering quote he provided, he stands by his recommendation of this steering kit.

Let him drive it mixed highway for 20 minutes or so and had a chance to talk about driving characteristics as they were happening. He said he can feel it wanting to dart left under accel, right decel and that could very well be the relationship between the drag link and the trackbar describing it as mild bump steer. Also noted when that condition occurs that there is an undeniable amount of body roll and rear sway and that sets on a cycle of correction back and forth.

I know my shocks are junk as mentioned in a thread on my rear pinion angle. They’re way too long for one and could be as old as the original lift that may have 120k+ miles and 15-20 years old. The other obvious reason for a difference in handling on worn out shocks is the fact that I put the hardtop and full doors back on and I did that when I started using it and driving long distances. This is when my irritation in handling kicked in and had me under it adjusting caster and scratching my head. These other things are all things I should’ve thought about when chasing my tail, but in my defense my vehicle experience is very limited to crew cab long bed diesel pickups I’ve always used for work. For instance my work truck weighs 12,000 at the curb with a trailer attached full time and the load can vary a few thousand pounds from day to day and I notice marginal difference.

He pointed out a tj is a tighter equation. Going from half doors and a bikini top to full doors and a hard top and then on top of that loading it with a cooler, car seat, extra passenger, tools and necessities for the day can make an impact on handling.

A percentage of my issue is the tail wagging the dog. Added weight in the rear on already worn out components. It does feel like there is a sail up top. He dropped me off at my house and said he was going to correct the bump steer, make sure everything underneath is tight and let me demo a set of good shocks. I told him I had a swayloc on order he said drop it off at the shop when it arrives and he wants to put it on himself and make sure everything is legitimate before I drive it again.

I have to say regardless of the broad opinion of his preferred steering system, the shop owner is handling this in the most comprehensive, professional way possible.

 

[TheBoogieman]

and let me demo a set of good shocks.

Rough Country?

 

[jjvw]

Only way that could happen is if there was no sleeve in the bushing

Either that, or maybe he thinks the bushing sleeve ought to be an interference fit like a tie rod end. Or he doesn't understand how bonded rubber bushing work.

 

[mrblaine]

Talking two different things. The bolt doesn’t move. Clamping force. Yes. Got it. The 5/8 bushing pivots around the 1/2 bolt. There is an 1/8” of slop.

No, it doesn't if it has a bolt sleeve.

 

[John’o]

No, it doesn't if it has a bolt sleeve.

Absolutely agree. Mine did not. I won’t blame my builder. It was a major overhaul. That many bolts. One or two things will get missed. We’ve been chasing it for a year. Your posts on track bars, clamping force and get a sleeve, etc. pointed to that bolt. Big Thanks! Never rode better.

 

[Window&DoorWhore]

Update in case anyone is experiencing the same swerving all over the road.

Finally figured it out a year later. Developed a metal on metal noise on the trails and had a few moments of dw on the way home from the trailhead. Stopped for gas and got underneath in the parking lot and got movement out of a lower control arm. Ordered and installed new flex bushings, problem solved. Virtually zero bump steer getting on and off the gas with hands off the wheel.

Tracks very well now in comparison. Rock krawler was great to deal with over the phone and got me set up with appropriate replacement bushings and the spanner tool.
I’ll be doing my own wrenching from here on out.

My first visit to that same shop was when I had the gears done, was informed all four lower control arms were installed backwards by previous owner (they were, and I didn’t know better). Paid to have them flipped around to put krawler joints at the axles. The damage to the flex bushings may have come from being on the articulating end at the axle since original installation.

Makes me wonder how well the gears were set up… At any rate it’s back to diy work. The next thing I’ll do is square the axles get bump stops and shocks dialed in, found a really good writeup on here.

Thanks,
Patrick