Rock Sliders / Rocker Guards Guide

[sab]

Well I have a set coming I'm going to install. I live in mississippi so not alot of rock crawling but do go over logs from time to time and wife needs the steps

You'd do well to consider drilling the rivet holes out and using 5/16-18 nutserts instead. Experience has shown that if you do drop down onto something, you want more fastener clamping force than those ARBs use to avoid transferring the impact forces to wrinkle the tub. It costs a bit of time for the installation and cost for the nutserts, installation tool, and screws, but that's cheap prevention for tub damage. Plus, if you have to remove them for any reason, you don't have to drill out what look to me to be stainless steel rivets from that installation video. Stainless steel rivets wreak havoc on drill bits.

Unlike some of the others in this thread, I decided to compromise on sliders, and, for me, it's by far my biggest compromise in my build. My arthritis only gets worse every year, and I, too have a short wife that I'd like to keep happy so she'll accompany me on an occasional back-country adventure because I do enjoy her company. I'm not building a primarily-rock-crawling rig, but I do want to be able to crawl some fun routes occasionally. I opted for Rockslide Engineering step sliders, but I did extensive mods, including inside and outside aluminum tub backers, to make them more capable. The two huge drawbacks are weight (with my mods, they weigh about 170 lb, and that was very hard to swallow, especially with a serious eye for overall vehicle weight) and width - they stick out a long ways. If my wife and I were younger (or I was blessed with better longevity genes), I'd have gone with a much lighter, narrower slider, as "jjvw and his minions" have espoused.

As I've said many times, it's your rig, so build it how you see fit. When skinning cats, there are many options...

 

[shooter.dm]

How many of the rivets would u replace with bolts

 

[bty34]

That hole lines up with the drain plug in the floor.

They have 11 rivets in the bottom into the torque boxes. Rivnuts would be a better solution to make them removable, but quantity shouldn't be an issue. I also don't see a need to go significantly larger into the sheet metal. Switching them to 1/4 or 5/16" rivnuts should be fine.

I didn't see signs of relative movement between the sliders and the body. Cutting the tube off and adding a lower profile rub rail would help them out quite a bit, but why go through all that if you can buy Savvy or Fluxor sliders.

 

[sab]

How many of the rivets would u replace with bolts

Well, like many here, I listen intently to what Mr. Blaine preaches. He has the rare traits of being both a very gifted designer and a well-experienced, TJ-specific builder/rock-crawler. Not only has he "been there, done that," but he also knows well how to analyze root cause of a failure and design to avoid those failures. His original Savvy design was perfected using that process, so I copied his design in that respect when I made my mods.

I placed fasteners of the same size and at the same spacing as that Savvy design when I could, and when I was forced to use smaller fasteners (1/4-20) due to design constraints, I used total cross-sectional area of the larger fasteners to determine how many smaller fasteners were required to get the same cross-sectional area, and spaced them accordingly.

That said, I'd recommend a minimum of eight 5/16-18 fasteners into the side of the tub (picture credit to @Irun from his Savvy installation post)

And a minimum of six of the same into the torque boxes (same thread for picture credit):

Also, one other important feature to avoid tub wrinkles is the aluminum inner backer, which goes on the inside of the tub below the door openings, and uses the side-of-tub fasteners to sandwich the tub between them and the sliders. That's a 3" x 19" piece of 6061-T6 aluminum, 3/8" thick. You can see how I made my backers in Post #209 of my build thread.

 

[shooter.dm]

Well, like many here, I listen intently to what Mr. Blaine preaches. He has the rare traits of being both a very gifted designer and a well-experienced, TJ-specific builder/rock-crawler. Not only has he "been there, done that," but he also knows well how to analyze root cause of a failure and design to avoid those failures. His original Savvy design was perfected using that process, so I copied his design in that respect when I made my mods.

I placed fasteners of the same size and at the same spacing as that Savvy design when I could, and when I was forced to use smaller fasteners (1/4-20) due to design constraints, I used total cross-sectional area of the larger fasteners to determine how many smaller fasteners were required to get the same cross-sectional area, and spaced them accordingly.

That said, I'd recommend a minimum of eight 5/16-18 fasteners into the side of the tub (picture credit to @Irun from his Savvy installation post)
View attachment 642163

And a minimum of six of the same into the torque boxes (same thread for picture credit):
View attachment 642162

Also, one other important feature to avoid tub wrinkles is the aluminum inner backer, which goes on the inside of the tub below the door openings, and uses the side-of-tub fasteners to sandwich the tub between them and the sliders. That's a 3" x 19" piece of 6061-T6 aluminum, 3/8" thick. You can see how I made my backers in Post #209 of my b

i dont know so im going to ask what makes this better than the arb. im asking because i just dont know. something is better than nothing and they all look to me has a angle bracket

 

[mrblaine]

Well, like many here, I listen intently to what Mr. Blaine preaches. He has the rare traits of being both a very gifted designer and a well-experienced, TJ-specific builder/rock-crawler. Not only has he "been there, done that," but he also knows well how to analyze root cause of a failure and design to avoid those failures. His original Savvy design was perfected using that process, so I copied his design in that respect when I made my mods.

I placed fasteners of the same size and at the same spacing as that Savvy design when I could, and when I was forced to use smaller fasteners (1/4-20) due to design constraints, I used total cross-sectional area of the larger fasteners to determine how many smaller fasteners were required to get the same cross-sectional area, and spaced them accordingly.

That said, I'd recommend a minimum of eight 5/16-18 fasteners into the side of the tub (picture credit to @Irun from his Savvy installation post)
View attachment 642163

And a minimum of six of the same into the torque boxes (same thread for picture credit):
View attachment 642162

Also, one other important feature to avoid tub wrinkles is the aluminum inner backer, which goes on the inside of the tub below the door openings, and uses the side-of-tub fasteners to sandwich the tub between them and the sliders. That's a 3" x 19" piece of 6061-T6 aluminum, 3/8" thick. You can see how I made my backers in Post #209 of my build thread.

I'd like to take credit for a lot of things that others came up with. All I did was some basic observation of how smart folks attach structural components on things like skins on airplanes. They use lots of little fasteners. When I noticed that the 5 mm bolts that hold on the stock plastic flares were more than enough to create high levels of sheet metal displacement when the flare gets tagged, that told me anything larger than 5 mm had enough single layer strength. Since Jeepers think bigger is better, I pretty much figured the massively overkill 1/4" wasn't going to be an easy sell so 5/16" it is. And they are easier to work with.

 

[bty34]

I'd like to take credit for a lot of things that others came up with. All I did was some basic observation of how smart folks attach structural components on things like skins on airplanes. They use lots of little fasteners. When I noticed that the 5 mm bolts that hold on the stock plastic flares were more than enough to create high levels of sheet metal displacement when the flare gets tagged, that told me anything larger than 5 mm had enough single layer strength. Since Jeepers think bigger is better, I pretty much figured the massively overkill 1/4" wasn't going to be an easy sell so 5/16" it is. And they are easier to work with.

AVK has a decent test datasheet for their rivnuts to put some numbers to your observations. In the sheet thickness we are dealing with, moving from 1/4" to 5/16" only gains 8% in pullout strength even though there is a 63% increase in bolt strength / cross sectional area.

More fasteners definitely wins over larger in this case.

 

[mrblaine]

More fasteners definitely wins over larger in this case.

Someone should explain that to the fucktards that did this. 5 or 6 total fasteners on the side holding on a rock rail, 3/8" diameter with no internal backer. But hey, they have a very cool logo.

 

[JMT]

Someone should explain that to the fucktards that did this. 5 or 6 total fasteners on the side holding on a rock rail, 3/8" diameter with no internal backer. But hey, they have a very cool logo.
View attachment 642248

Nailed it, as usual. More stuff to fix.

 

[givngas]

Add this to the list.

[URL]https://nem-ind.com/tj-billy-rocker.html[/URL]

No-one ever replied to this link. What about the Nemesis compared to Savvy?

 

[jjvw]

No-one ever replied to this link. What about the Nemesis compared to Savvy?

It has been discussed. Nemesis is big, bulky, and heavy compared to Savvy. There is no comparison. The problem is getting the original Savvy design stuff instead of what has been available in the last year or so.

 

[givngas]

It has been discussed. Nemesis is big, bulky, and heavy compared to Savvy. There is no comparison. The problem is getting the original Savvy design stuff instead of what has been available in the last year or so.

Well assuming the original is unavailable, how does the new Savvy compare? Any strength/mounting issues with the Nemesis, or just weight and size?

 

[jjvw]

Well assuming the original is unavailable, how does the new Savvy compare? Any strength/mounting issues with the Nemesis, or just weight and size?

If you dig into the big Savvy complaining threads, there is a lot of disappointment and discussion of the recent Savvy redesigns. Understanding why is a useful education in why thoughtful design matters that may inform how you think about things.

 

[sunnysideup_lj]

Well assuming the original is unavailable, how does the new Savvy compare? Any strength/mounting issues with the Nemesis, or just weight and size?

Are you talking about the Nemesis Billy Rockers? They hang down to the bottom of the frame. Why add more stuff to hit when you are trying to protect something you don’t want to hit.

 

[JMT]

No-one ever replied to this link. What about the Nemesis compared to Savvy?

I used to have a write-up on the Nemesis rockers in the original post, but I removed them due to extreme bulkiness.

 

[rasband]

I used to have a write-up on the Nemesis rockers in the original post, but I removed them due to extreme bulkiness.

I guess the triangular shape gives the false sense of being a boatside substitute... (I think motobilt has one of these too)

 

[JMT]

I guess the triangular shape gives the false sense of being a boatside substitute... (I think motobilt has one of these too)

It looks like you cut away a few inches of the tub to make the Nemesis Billy Rocker’s fit. I remember when I first looked at these I thought, “Wow, that’s a lot of coverage. It covers the body mounts all the way to the frame.” I think people are confused about what we’re trying to accomplish with a rocker. There was a thread about it in the last few months. It’s odd because one of the things we’re always trying to gain are clearances. Clearing an obstacle is always better than hitting one. Hitting obstacles impedes progress while clearing an obstacle permits progress. This is quite obtrusive, especially when you figure in that we’re raising our body mounts!

Couple of strange things on the design. One is they are made of 3/16” 5052 aluminum. I wouldn’t make anything that’s bound to eventually have direct contact with rocks under the weight of the Jeep out of 3/16” aluminum with nothing but sheet metal under it. I can’t imagine it surviving. Severe dents. My engine skid is a good example. Bent up to the oil pan. Saved the oil pan. Had to bend it back out. We know the liabilities and purposes there.

Second is explained by the two pictures. Do I or do I not need to have the Nemesis tub armor to install the rockers?

 

[Apparition]

View attachment 654905

I haven't seen those before, they are gross. Imagine all the dirt that they'd store.

 

[JMT]

I haven't seen those before, they are gross. Imagine all the dirt that they'd store.

Worse than torque boxes.

 

[mrblaine]

Couple of strange things on the design. One is they are made of 3/16” 5052 aluminum. I wouldn’t make anything that’s bound to eventually have direct contact with rocks under the weight of the Jeep out of 3/16” aluminum with nothing but sheet metal under it. I can’t imagine it surviving. Severe dents.

No armor should ever be made from 5052 even in a thicker material. It is about 1/2 the strength of 6061 T-6. It is used because it can be bent and formed with tight bends, it doesn't rust like steel, and it is cheaper by a bunch. Savvy did a few experimental mini boatsides in 6061 T-6 in 3/16". They failed terribly and with a quickness in a few trips out to JV.

My engine skid is a good example. Bent up to the oil pan. Saved the oil pan. Had to bend it back out. We know the liabilities and purposes there.

What is your skid made from?