Do It Myself or Let Them Try Again?

[lumberjacklloyd]

IMO it is definitely a good idea to use a LITTLE rtv around the hard case seals such as Spicer. It's is not a tight press fit like a crank seal and the OD can leak.

The expanding type I think depends on how your cup looks.

 

[mrblaine]

lol well apparently I can't... So you put RTV around the perimeter of the rear seals?? I can't say I've ever seen anyone do that before...

Not all, Set 20 and anything other than the Timken seal with the skirt for Dana 44.

Makes me wonder if the failures we saw on Dale's Dana 44 was a perimeter leak...

No idea and that's why it is awesome until it isn't.

 

[pc1p]

Why w


Why wouldn’t you do it to all hammer in seals,it couldn’t hurt to help seal ?

I know, that's why I do...

But the Dana 44 rears aren't hammer in, so it never occurred to me to use some RTV around them, and in ~20 years of building and repairing rear axles, I never had both left and right wheel seals fail twice in a row.

 

[k1n3k]

And the saga continues....

I ordered some parts from Rodavictoriausa.com. They claimed to have the parts on hand, in stock, and ships the same day. Timken stuff. I got a tracking number. "Shipping label created"
No change 7 days later.
So I've contacted them and got a refund.

SO round 2, who has a good place to get parts? I'm going to see if Napa can get me some stuff for this weekend. Should that plan fail, I'll be ordering stuff.

 

[lumberjacklloyd]

And the saga continues....

I ordered some parts from Rodavictoriausa.com. They claimed to have the parts on hand, in stock, and ships the same day. Timken stuff. I got a tracking number. "Shipping label created"
No change 7 days later.
So I've contacted them and got a refund.

SO round 2, who has a good place to get parts? I'm going to see if Napa can get me some stuff for this weekend. Should that plan fail, I'll be ordering stuff.

Summit Racing has Set 10 and seals in stock. They are quick shippers too.

TMK-SET10
9912s

 

[mrblaine]

And the saga continues....

I ordered some parts from Rodavictoriausa.com. They claimed to have the parts on hand, in stock, and ships the same day. Timken stuff. I got a tracking number. "Shipping label created"
No change 7 days later.
So I've contacted them and got a refund.

SO round 2, who has a good place to get parts? I'm going to see if Napa can get me some stuff for this weekend. Should that plan fail, I'll be ordering stuff.

I don't sell it often but I have everything you need if you want me to check stock? I was not aware it was hard to get.

 

[k1n3k]

I don't sell it often but I have everything you need if you want me to check stock? I was not aware it was hard to get.

If you have it, I will buy it.

 

[mrblaine]

If you have it, I will buy it.

I will check in a few.

 

[mrblaine]

If you have it, I will buy it.

I have Timken Set 10, Spicer Set 10 which is Timken in Spicer boxes. For seals I have Timken 9912S and Spicer.

 

[k1n3k]

I have Timken Set 10, Spicer Set 10 which is Timken in Spicer boxes. For seals I have Timken 9912S and Spicer.

I'll defer to your experience on which ones are the better ones to get. I'll take 2 of each so I can do both axles at the same time. If one failed, I'm sure the other is nearing the end too. What is the best way to get shipping info and payment to you? Are they listed on your site or do you want to move to a DM or email?

Edit: I see your email on your site, I'll shoot over a message and we can go from there.

 

[k1n3k]

Alright, I think I found the problem and put it to bed. I hope at least...

Starting off, It felt like the new bearing had more play in it than the original one that I had the shop replace in the first place. Not off to a great start.

Clear signs of leaks still, fresh oil. Glad to see that the new puddles are at least from the same source and not a new one.

I disassembled it and started trying to figure out if its the OD or the ID of the seal that leaked.

The axle shaft was dry for the most part. Hard to say, but looked like residue and not fresh oil.

You can see it was assembled correctly.

The backing plate looks like it had a substantial amount of oil on both sides, moreso than the shaft by a long shot. The sealing surface of the shaft is clean, no nicks or grooves, nice and smooth. The lips of the seal were in good condition this time. This seal also leaked substantially less.

I was curious as to why this would have leaked. Looking closer at the silicone smeared around the seal, I noticed that the sealing ridge seemed to be at the very edge of the silicone that got wiped off as the seal was inserted. Taking a close look at it, it appears that the sealing ridge around the perimeter of the seal never actually reaches the bore. It sits in the bottom of the chamfer on the axle tube, but not compressed into the bore. I believe this is the source of the leak, as everything else seems fine seal wise.

The bearing was for sure a cheap bearing, with less than 400 miles on it, its looking unhappy. Evidence of debris in it and early stages of spalling. Highly unlikely it would have survived more than 10,000 miles.

So with everything removed, I opened up the new parts @mrblaine sent over, and he saved my bacon by sending 2 sets of seals. One set was Timken, and the other was Spicer. The Timken seals for whatever reason were and extremely loose fit. Easily slipped into the bore with no friction. These would have been the same as the ones I ordered elsewhere. The Spicer seals were a nice fit though, and comparing the location of the sealing ridge on those, the ridge was inboard .030" more than the seal I removed, so it will engage the bore. So I chose the Spicer to install.

I went ahead a and pressed it all together. Luckily I was able to finish my other project enough to have it drivable, and so I used it to shuttle the axle and parts the 30 miles to the machine shop. Normally I'd just do the work there, but since the incident the space it limited. They had gotten the press working again a couple weeks ago.

I pressed the retaining collar on next, no picture of that. Reassembly went without a hitch, I also applied a thin bead of silicone around the seal before installation. I cleaned the goo out of the rim as well, there was around 1/8" of gunk in it.
We'll see how it holds up. The rear brake pads are also contaminated with oil. I cleaned those up the best I could and have new pads to replace them that Mrblaine also sent, however the rotors are garbage and need replaced. I'll verify this doesn't leak, replace the bearing on the other wheel, replace the sagged springs and shocks on all 4 corners and replace the rotors and pads in the rear while I do that. That will be next weekends project. This weekend we're taking the Jeep out on a trip with my friend in his Samurai.

Thanks again MrBlaine, and I'll report back here if it starts leaking.

 

[mrblaine]

Alright, I think I found the problem and put it to bed. I hope at least...

Starting off, It felt like the new bearing had more play in it than the original one that I had the shop replace in the first place. Not off to a great start.

Clear signs of leaks still, fresh oil. Glad to see that the new puddles are at least from the same source and not a new one.


View attachment 655172

View attachment 655173

I disassembled it and started trying to figure out if its the OD or the ID of the seal that leaked.

The axle shaft was dry for the most part. Hard to say, but looked like residue and not fresh oil.

You can see it was assembled correctly.

View attachment 655174



View attachment 655175


View attachment 655176

The backing plate looks like it had a substantial amount of oil on both sides, moreso than the shaft by a long shot. The sealing surface of the shaft is clean, no nicks or grooves, nice and smooth. The lips of the seal were in good condition this time. This seal also leaked substantially less.

I was curious as to why this would have leaked. Looking closer at the silicone smeared around the seal, I noticed that the sealing ridge seemed to be at the very edge of the silicone that got wiped off as the seal was inserted. Taking a close look at it, it appears that the sealing ridge around the perimeter of the seal never actually reaches the bore. It sits in the bottom of the chamfer on the axle tube, but not compressed into the bore. I believe this is the source of the leak, as everything else seems fine seal wise.

The bearing was for sure a cheap bearing, with less than 400 miles on it, its looking unhappy. Evidence of debris in it and early stages of spalling. Highly unlikely it would have survived more than 10,000 miles.


View attachment 655183


View attachment 655184


So with everything removed, I opened up the new parts @mrblaine sent over, and he saved my bacon by sending 2 sets of seals. One set was Timken, and the other was Spicer. The Timken seals for whatever reason were and extremely loose fit. Easily slipped into the bore with no friction. These would have been the same as the ones I ordered elsewhere. The Spicer seals were a nice fit though, and comparing the location of the sealing ridge on those, the ridge was inboard .030" more than the seal I removed, so it will engage the bore. So I chose the Spicer to install.

I went ahead a and pressed it all together. Luckily I was able to finish my other project enough to have it drivable, and so I used it to shuttle the axle and parts the 30 miles to the machine shop. Normally I'd just do the work there, but since the incident the space it limited. They had gotten the press working again a couple weeks ago.


View attachment 655185


I pressed the retaining collar on next, no picture of that. Reassembly went without a hitch, I also applied a thin bead of silicone around the seal before installation. I cleaned the goo out of the rim as well, there was around 1/8" of gunk in it.
We'll see how it holds up. The rear brake pads are also contaminated with oil. I cleaned those up the best I could and have new pads to replace them that Mrblaine also sent, however the rotors are garbage and need replaced. I'll verify this doesn't leak, replace the bearing on the other wheel, replace the sagged springs and shocks on all 4 corners and replace the rotors and pads in the rear while I do that. That will be next weekends project. This weekend we're taking the Jeep out on a trip with my friend in his Samurai.

Thanks again MrBlaine, and I'll report back here if it starts leaking.

My only comment other than you are welcome is the Timken seal can't be checked by how it fits in the bore like that. If you set one next to a Spicer seal, you will notice the Timken is taller until the retainer is tightened at which point the outer part of the seal body is compressed, moves inward and that action expands the seal skirt against the inside of the seal bore. It will be loose by design until the retainer does its job.

 

[lumberjacklloyd]

Alright, I think I found the problem and put it to bed. I hope at least...

Starting off, It felt like the new bearing had more play in it than the original one that I had the shop replace in the first place. Not off to a great start.

Clear signs of leaks still, fresh oil. Glad to see that the new puddles are at least from the same source and not a new one.


View attachment 655172

View attachment 655173

I disassembled it and started trying to figure out if its the OD or the ID of the seal that leaked.

The axle shaft was dry for the most part. Hard to say, but looked like residue and not fresh oil.

You can see it was assembled correctly.

View attachment 655174



View attachment 655175


View attachment 655176

The backing plate looks like it had a substantial amount of oil on both sides, moreso than the shaft by a long shot. The sealing surface of the shaft is clean, no nicks or grooves, nice and smooth. The lips of the seal were in good condition this time. This seal also leaked substantially less.

I was curious as to why this would have leaked. Looking closer at the silicone smeared around the seal, I noticed that the sealing ridge seemed to be at the very edge of the silicone that got wiped off as the seal was inserted. Taking a close look at it, it appears that the sealing ridge around the perimeter of the seal never actually reaches the bore. It sits in the bottom of the chamfer on the axle tube, but not compressed into the bore. I believe this is the source of the leak, as everything else seems fine seal wise.

The bearing was for sure a cheap bearing, with less than 400 miles on it, its looking unhappy. Evidence of debris in it and early stages of spalling. Highly unlikely it would have survived more than 10,000 miles.


View attachment 655183


View attachment 655184


So with everything removed, I opened up the new parts @mrblaine sent over, and he saved my bacon by sending 2 sets of seals. One set was Timken, and the other was Spicer. The Timken seals for whatever reason were and extremely loose fit. Easily slipped into the bore with no friction. These would have been the same as the ones I ordered elsewhere. The Spicer seals were a nice fit though, and comparing the location of the sealing ridge on those, the ridge was inboard .030" more than the seal I removed, so it will engage the bore. So I chose the Spicer to install.

I went ahead a and pressed it all together. Luckily I was able to finish my other project enough to have it drivable, and so I used it to shuttle the axle and parts the 30 miles to the machine shop. Normally I'd just do the work there, but since the incident the space it limited. They had gotten the press working again a couple weeks ago.


View attachment 655185


I pressed the retaining collar on next, no picture of that. Reassembly went without a hitch, I also applied a thin bead of silicone around the seal before installation. I cleaned the goo out of the rim as well, there was around 1/8" of gunk in it.
We'll see how it holds up. The rear brake pads are also contaminated with oil. I cleaned those up the best I could and have new pads to replace them that Mrblaine also sent, however the rotors are garbage and need replaced. I'll verify this doesn't leak, replace the bearing on the other wheel, replace the sagged springs and shocks on all 4 corners and replace the rotors and pads in the rear while I do that. That will be next weekends project. This weekend we're taking the Jeep out on a trip with my friend in his Samurai.

Thanks again MrBlaine, and I'll report back here if it starts leaking.

The timken seal is loose because it has an expanding skirt that expands when compressed by axle retainer plate. Intended and why it is the better seal.

Glad to hear you found a culprit. Should serve you well.

 

[GoldenGorilla]

Alright, I think I found the problem and put it to bed. I hope at least...

Starting off, It felt like the new bearing had more play in it than the original one that I had the shop replace in the first place. Not off to a great start.

Clear signs of leaks still, fresh oil. Glad to see that the new puddles are at least from the same source and not a new one.


View attachment 655172

View attachment 655173

I disassembled it and started trying to figure out if its the OD or the ID of the seal that leaked.

The axle shaft was dry for the most part. Hard to say, but looked like residue and not fresh oil.

You can see it was assembled correctly.

View attachment 655174



View attachment 655175


View attachment 655176

The backing plate looks like it had a substantial amount of oil on both sides, moreso than the shaft by a long shot. The sealing surface of the shaft is clean, no nicks or grooves, nice and smooth. The lips of the seal were in good condition this time. This seal also leaked substantially less.

I was curious as to why this would have leaked. Looking closer at the silicone smeared around the seal, I noticed that the sealing ridge seemed to be at the very edge of the silicone that got wiped off as the seal was inserted. Taking a close look at it, it appears that the sealing ridge around the perimeter of the seal never actually reaches the bore. It sits in the bottom of the chamfer on the axle tube, but not compressed into the bore. I believe this is the source of the leak, as everything else seems fine seal wise.

The bearing was for sure a cheap bearing, with less than 400 miles on it, its looking unhappy. Evidence of debris in it and early stages of spalling. Highly unlikely it would have survived more than 10,000 miles.


View attachment 655183


View attachment 655184


So with everything removed, I opened up the new parts @mrblaine sent over, and he saved my bacon by sending 2 sets of seals. One set was Timken, and the other was Spicer. The Timken seals for whatever reason were and extremely loose fit. Easily slipped into the bore with no friction. These would have been the same as the ones I ordered elsewhere. The Spicer seals were a nice fit though, and comparing the location of the sealing ridge on those, the ridge was inboard .030" more than the seal I removed, so it will engage the bore. So I chose the Spicer to install.

I went ahead a and pressed it all together. Luckily I was able to finish my other project enough to have it drivable, and so I used it to shuttle the axle and parts the 30 miles to the machine shop. Normally I'd just do the work there, but since the incident the space it limited. They had gotten the press working again a couple weeks ago.


View attachment 655185


I pressed the retaining collar on next, no picture of that. Reassembly went without a hitch, I also applied a thin bead of silicone around the seal before installation. I cleaned the goo out of the rim as well, there was around 1/8" of gunk in it.
We'll see how it holds up. The rear brake pads are also contaminated with oil. I cleaned those up the best I could and have new pads to replace them that Mrblaine also sent, however the rotors are garbage and need replaced. I'll verify this doesn't leak, replace the bearing on the other wheel, replace the sagged springs and shocks on all 4 corners and replace the rotors and pads in the rear while I do that. That will be next weekends project. This weekend we're taking the Jeep out on a trip with my friend in his Samurai.

Thanks again MrBlaine, and I'll report back here if it starts leaking.

You might want to do the shoes for the parking brake while you're doing the rear brakes. Those pads tend to get soaked by the leaking axle juice. It's easier to back out the axle to change them though, so that might weigh against your decision. I swapped the pads and set the up while i had the axle out and got everything clean.