A Story of Indecision and Frivolous Spending

[Chris]

Some giant customer service issues, general arrogance toward me as a customer, and over promising ship dates. That was a few years ago, so things may have changed.

That said, they make some of the best products for TJ's.

Do you have any pictures of this magical suspension that is supposed to be better than the Savvy midarm?

I'd heard about those shipping issues in the past. I will say, I'm 99.9% sure they got that sorted out. I've ordered a ton of Savvy parts in the past year, and every single one of the parts I ordered has shipped the same day I ordered it. In fact, I ordered that mid-arm kit on Tuesday, and it just got here today (Friday). I was shocked at how quick it came!

Here's some photos of the JW mid-arm on various TJs:

 

[Chris]

I don't know enough to make a call on which is better than the other.

I'm not sure one is better than the other. I think that like @jjvw mentioned earlier, no one knows what kind of terrain Dave is building his mid-arms for. Perhaps he's building them to be a good all around balance of everything?

Savvy has no doubt built their's to be a rock crawler suspension, as those guys wheel down in JV and those types of places. I can definitely see how the Savvy mid-arm suspension would have less inherent bind without the rear track bar that the JW mid-arm has. That's not to say the JW one isn't as good, it's just good in another way.

I truly do think that a lot of it would come down to driver preference.

 

[Clint Rivera]

Tiffany Egli TJ mid arm build on the Jeep West page.

That suspension is 100% not better than a Savvy mid-arm unless it's 50% less expensive.

The fabrication is not impressive and some of the welds are questionable at best. I wouldn't take a lawnmower to that shop much less a Jeep I liked.

 

[jjvw]

That suspension is 100% not better than a Savvy mid-arm unless it's 50% less expensive.

The fabrication is not impressive and some of the welds are questionable at best. I wouldn't take a lawnmower to that shop much less a Jeep I liked.

Fabrication aside, what do you see?

 

[Chris]

That suspension is 100% not better than a Savvy mid-arm unless it's 50% less expensive.

The fabrication is not impressive and some of the welds are questionable at best. I wouldn't take a lawnmower to that shop much less a Jeep I liked.

Dave quoted me $4000 for all the work, which includes outboarding the rear shocks, the shocks themselves (Bilstein 5150s), and all the parts he custom builds for the mid-arm.

By comparison, my Savvy mid-arm kit (the upgrade kit at least) was $2345, plus $400 for the GenRight outboard towers and rear spring relocation brackets, around $500 for the shocks, plus $2900 for labor. That's what the other shop was going to charge at least.

So Dave's price is substantially cheaper. However, at this point it looks like I'll be spending more to have the Savvy mid-arm installed.

 

[Squatch]

this guy was very upset (as am I) that this guy who builds these great suspension setups is lazy as hell when it comes to actually getting the work done.

I'll play devil's advocate, and suggest that perhaps it isn't an issue of laziness at all, but one of piss-poor time management, and taking on (committing to) more than he can handle. You have stated before that he doesn't know how to run a business, and I've encountered that many times through the years with different independent shops. Laziness, on the other hand...well, that's a pretty rough label to paste on someone. I don't know the man, but as a result of your experience, as well as Sri's, likely never will do business with him. Your assessment of him may be spot-on. But like I said, he could just be "that guy" who takes on far more than his schedule allows. I'm quite familiar with that issue...

*BTW, I think you should pull the plug on your dealings with him, and retrieve your vehicle. You can get the work done elsewhere, and be enjoying your ride once again.

 

[jjvw]

....

By comparison, my Savvy mid-arm kit (the upgrade kit at least) was $2345, plus $400 for the GenRight outboard towers and rear spring relocation brackets, around $500 for the shocks, plus $2900 for labor. That's what the other shop was going to charge at least.
....

I almost feel bad about how little mine cost. Almost.

 

[Chris]

I almost feel bad about how little mine cost. Almost.

Haha, no kidding! It’s going to cost me quite a bit in the end!

 

[Daryl]

Always cheaper to buy than build. The secret is find that build that you want. If not, build it, but it’s gonna cost ya.

 

[Clint Rivera]

Fabrication aside, what do you see?

The main thing with the front for me is the front lower bent links.

The rear - just a longer linked stock 5 link?

Overspray over everything. Built like he didn't care.

 

[Chris]

The main thing with the front for me is the front lower bent links.

The rear - just a longer linked stock 5 link?

Overspray over everything. Built like he didn't care.

I’m not sure what purpose the bent links serve other than maybe clearance? But the rear isn’t even triangulated, huh?

I guess it doesn’t need to be with the track bar still there.

 

[jjvw]

I’m not sure what purpose the bent links serve other than maybe clearance?

That's all I can think of. I know on mine, that bend would reduce the up travel. The arms would hit the frame sooner than they do.

But the rear isn’t even triangulated, huh?

I guess it doesn’t need to be with the track bar still there.

No need to triangulate with a track bar. I still go back to wondering why it isn't a 3 link rear + track bar.

 

[jjvw]

...

The rear - just a longer linked stock 5 link?

....

Seems like it. But with some upper link height adjustability.

 

[Chris]

That's all I can think of. I know on mine, that bend would reduce the up travel. The arms would hit the frame sooner than they do.



No need to triangulate with a track bar. I still go back to wondering why it isn't a 3 link rear + track bar.

Yeah, I too would think that if it was going to have a rear track bar, shouldn’t it just be a 3-link at that point?

And yes, the bent arms seem strange. The amount of clearance you would gain from them seems negligible at best, compared at least to the amount of up-travel you would lose.

See, when I look at this it makes me want the Savvy mid-arm more. Then again, I’ve never actually tested either out, so I know nothing. But in my mind, the way the Savvy kit is laid out seems better.

 

[JDS123]

In terms of Savvy, I will say that they most definitely have not figured out their shipping times yet. My Savvy underarmor that was supposed to be backordered shipped on the same day. But my Savvy rock sliders and tail lights have not shipped yet, even though I ordered them over two months ago (I was charged then as well).

In terms of which suspension is better, I haven't got the slightest clue.

 

[Clint Rivera]

I’m not sure what purpose the bent links serve other than maybe clearance? But the rear isn’t even triangulated, huh?

I guess it doesn’t need to be with the track bar still there.

It's for tire clearance. The correct way to do it is to angle the lower frame mounts in a bit, or swap to wider axles. Bent links are no fun to adjust, and if you put a rock on one, they tend to rotate.

For the rear 5 link, you either need to have rubber bushings (like factory) or run the links parallel or you will get lots of binding. That doesn't let you adjust the anti-squat. Also, the rear axle will move sideways when it cycles - not an issue stock, but more of an issue with an increase in travel.

It would make more sense to do a rear 3 link (like they do on JK's to get around the gas tank) or build a single triangulated 4 link.

 

[Chris]

It's for tire clearance. The correct way to do it is to angle the lower frame mounts in a bit, or swap to wider axles. Bent links are no fun to adjust, and if you put a rock on one, they tend to rotate.

For the rear 5 link, you either need to have rubber bushings (like factory) or run the links parallel or you will get lots of binding. That doesn't let you adjust the anti-squat. Also, the rear axle will move sideways when it cycles - not an issue stock, but more of an issue with an increase in travel.

It would make more sense to do a rear 3 link (like they do on JK's to get around the gas tank) or build a single triangulated 4 link.

That makes sense, because he actually uses rubber bushings on one end of the links, which explains why he is doing that. I was always curious why he didn’t just use JJs. Now I know.

So in your opinion, the Savvy mid-arm would actually be a better option as far as rock crawling and less inherent bind?

 

[tomtaylz]

In terms of Savvy, I will say that they most definitely have not figured out their shipping times yet. My Savvy underarmor that was supposed to be backordered shipped on the same day. But my Savvy rock sliders and tail lights have not shipped yet, even though I ordered them over two months ago (I was charged then as well).

In terms of which suspension is better, I haven't got the slightest clue.

Darn would have thought you would have gotten my rockers I sent back! :risas3:

 

[JDS123]

Darn would have thought you would have gotten my rockers I sent back! :risas3:

I should've just bought your rockers off ebay. I ordered mine only a few days after you sent yours back in . I think the tail lights are the backup. Apparently they had "an order for 15 tail lights come in" the day before mine. Dropped my Jeep off at the shop today for the frame swap so I can only hope they get here soon.

 

[jjvw]

...

See, when I look at this it makes me want the Savvy mid-arm more. Then again, I’ve never actually tested either out, so I know nothing. But in my mind, the way the Savvy kit is laid out seems better.

When I've talked to Blaine about the Savvy, he points out the upper arms being as high as they can be without chopping into the tub. That is why it requires the body lift. It seems he would go higher, but the Savvy target audience wants a reasonably intact tub. The JW uppers are not as high, and have the option to go even lower. That is going to bring the instant center closer and lower than Savvy. Less antisquat?