Dave Kishpaugh's (Jeep West) geometry correction brackets are now available

[jjvw]

Ok....I probably an going to regret this... But a lot of the nay-sayer in this thread have gone on record as saying that there should be no difference between road manners and off road manners... Good manners are good manners. Now, we have people take one comment from Dave about a bracket design that might be biased toward street driving and all of a sudden, these brackets are in a different category and don't belong on an off road rig.

But wait...I thought manners were manners and jeeps could drive good on the street and off road?

The fact of the matter is that suspension design theory doesn't change based on the length of arm you run. The same rules of physics apply to us all, equally. So if Dave has made a set of brackets that change the geometry to something you desire, get the brackets. If not, then let it go.

I don't understand the animosity in this thread. Just let it go. Why the hell does anyone care what anyone else chooses to run? Experience is the best teacher and education costs money. There aren't a set of users on this forum that have been appointed at the protectors and guardians of all that is TJ...but it sure as hell seems like some of you think you are.

I was just about to post the same thing. I find it very very interesting that an improvement in handling that doesn’t hurt off road (and may even help to some degree) is met with such hatred. The guise of “wanting to learn” from the ones who so staunchly talk shit about it is honestly just gross. Why can’t we be better and more objective?

You guys aren't paying attention. The only part of this that I haven't questioned is the higher roll center. I have no doubt that will improve the overall handling to some degree.

 

[rasband]

I don't understand the animosity in this thread.

There’s been only a few things that seemed targeted in this, but it felt to me that a lot has been conversing to try to understand. I can’t tell if this is you, so please don’t misread this suggesting it’s you, but some folks seem to think that a differing opinion is an attack (which I try to assume it’s not).

 

[jjvw]

Makes me think there is more to the story...

No. There isn't. If you care to find more to a story, pay very close attention to the specific mods Dave is singling out as being unnecessary thanks to his amazing geo correction kit. Shock outboarding, tuned shocks, brake caliper flip, the Savvy mid arm. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who Dave is going after.

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone doing an outboard would not want to make life easier and end up with better results by not flipping the rear calipers. I've tried and I can't. Which makes this one feel especially deliberate and pointed.

 

[Gollywomper]

My biggest take from this is, those yelling the loudest do not run short arms. There is a stigma on this forum that you just don’t need anything other than short arms unless your worthy of a mid arm. Like it is some elite club that most don’t belong in. Who cares If a guy wants to drop 165 on some brackets. Who cares if someone wants to install a mid arm. Now if there is some fault in a product then we should speak up. But we have become judgmental Jeep snobs here. How about we just get back to keeping our jeeps running and enjoy the trail.

 

[Pressurized]

No. There isn't. If you care to find more to a story, pay very close attention to the specific mods Dave is singling out as being unnecessary thanks to his amazing geo correction kit. Shock outboarding, tuned shocks, brake caliper flip, the Savvy mid arm. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who Dave is going after.

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone doing an outboard would not want to make life easier and end up with better results by not flipping the rear calipers. I've tried and I can't. Which makes this one feel especially deliberate and pointed.

And there it is... the rest of the story that supposedly doesn’t exist.

 

[jjvw]

My biggest take from this is, those yelling the loudest do not run short arms. There is a stigma on this forum that you just don’t need anything other than short arms unless your worthy of a mid arm. Like it is some elite club that most don’t belong in. Who cares If a guy wants to drop 165 on some brackets. Who cares if someone wants to install a mid arm. Now if there is some fault in a product then we should speak up. But we have become judgmental Jeep snobs here. How about we just get back to keeping our jeeps running and enjoy the trail.

For those who think I'm yelling the loudest, remember how often I encourage people who ask to get the Savvy mid arm.

 

[jjvw]

And there it is... the rest of the story that supposedly doesn’t exist.

So you agree that Dave is on some level being disingenous in his sales pitch?

 

[Gollywomper]

For those who think I'm yelling the loudest, remember how often I encourage people who ask to get the Savvy mid arm.

That’s great, I have not been part of those conversations. I’m glad you do as I think it is a great product.

 

[Pressurized]

So you agree that Dave is on some level being disingenous in his sales pitch?

No, I agree that your entire response, from the beginning of this thread is agenda driven...

 

[Mike_H]

There’s been only a few things that seemed targeted in this, but it felt to me that a lot has been conversing to try to understand. I can’t tell if this is you, so please don’t misread this suggesting it’s you, but some folks seem to think that a differing opinion is an attack (which I try to assume it’s not).

The "trying to understand" piece is getting lost in this thread.

No. There isn't. If you care to find more to a story, pay very close attention to the specific mods Dave is singling out as being unnecessary thanks to his amazing geo correction kit. Shock outboarding, tuned shocks, brake caliper flip, the Savvy mid arm. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who Dave is going after.

So what? I don't think he's "going after" Blaine. He just has a different theory and probably a different set of operating criteria. His operating criteria doesn't require the stuff that Blaine does. Does that mean it's wrong? Is Blaine the only guy who has a "correct" theory on how to build a TJ? He (Blaine) has explicitly said that isn't true.

Dave has said that outboard will help his kit. A caliper flip doesn't have anything to do with geometry or handling, and mid arms, by your own admission, are unnecessary for most users.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

For those who think I'm yelling the loudest, remember how often I encourage people who ask to get the Savvy mid arm.

See but there is an issue in the way that you approach it. You bought your mid arm on what, 2” of lift? On 32s or 33s or something? Why? Why did you get it? Did you wheel hard enough then to fix the issues you encounters by already being on a 4” and 35”s? If the savvy mid arm can be geometry corrected for greater road stability (it can be and is all the time) then why would that be looked at as the gold standard? Why not encourage people who don’t “qualify” for the mid arm in many of y’all’s eyes to get the geo correction? Why not?? What’s the harm??

 

[jjvw]

That’s great, I have not been part of those conversations. I’m glad you do as I think it is a great product.

It is a great product. And I actively discourage people from buying it before they figure out why they need it.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

So what everyone is saying then is that we're all smarter than a bunch of Jeep engineers?

Something like that Well at least I feel smarter than them after watching BFH garage

 

[rasband]

So what everyone is saying then is that we're all smarter than a bunch of Jeep engineers?

Have you seen the shovel they shipped on these from the factory?

 

[hosejockey61]

Have you seen the shovel they shipped on these from the factory?

I deleted my comment because it is irrelevant to the thread now.

 

[Blackjack]

Ironically, for $160, I have not seen a single post that indicates what the geo brackets make worse... A lot of questions about what they make better (all from people that don't have them), a lot of answers on what is better, but not a single post about what is "worse". That's the internet for you...

And I doubt you will.

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

Ironically, for $160, I have not seen a single post that indicates what the geo brackets make worse... A lot of questions about what they make better (all from people that don't have them), a lot of answers on what is better, but not a single post about what is "worse". That's the internet for you...

Yeah once I see what it worse about the geo correction than stock I’ll bite my tongue. Until then....welp.....

 

[BuildBreakRepeat]

You guys aren't paying attention. The only part of this that I haven't questioned is the higher roll center. I have no doubt that will improve the overall handling to some degree.

Apparently I’m always not paying attention who cares if rear steer is a real thing and makes a difference? Who cares if metal cloak really makes a difference with their Kevlar bushings? Does it help? As far as MC does for sure not. But does geo correction improve a stock tj?

 

[hosejockey61]

And one last thing before the thread gets locked (again)....














....Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself.

 

[P man]

If someone can come up with a fair way to test before and after I am happy to use my short arm jeep as a guinea pig and post the results here. Just an idea