Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ radiator

What is the best riding and performing lift kit for my 2001 TJ?

WTH?
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T_Hase89 said:
I’ll donate my Jeep temporarily for the Blaine built side of the competition. Of course, still needs the built side but ya know...
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mrblaine said:
A gift for you sir. Hopefully the digital bits do not degrade over time due to frequent use which I highly encourage in these discussions.
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“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” Plato
 
jesseshoots said:
That dude shit on everyone whenever he got a chance. Usually it was really funny and uneducated lol! He thought leaf springs were god's gift to rock crawling :ROFLMAO:
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Well if you recall, he started out on the forum with an avatar of Al Jolson wearing black face, so clearly it would seem he came here to stir the pot :ROFLMAO:
 
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Wow, I just found this thread. Am I too late to stir it up again?

For clarity, I am from the view point that you need both the correct springs and the correct shocks for a well mannered ride and proper handling. Although I believe shocks do nothing more than dampen and control the springs, I am inclined to believe that springs do more than just set ride height.

Before I jump into the mix, my question for @jjvw. Why the fixation on whether or not ride height changes when the springs change? Please explain why you believe a change in ride height negates any discernible feel in a change in spring rates.
 
Fargo said:
Wow, I just found this thread. Am I too late to stir it up again?

For clarity, I am from the view point that you need both the correct springs and the correct shocks for a well mannered ride and proper handling. Although I believe shocks do nothing more than dampen and control the springs, I am inclined to believe that springs do more than just set ride height.

Before I jump into the mix, my question for @jjvw. Why the fixation on whether or not ride height changes when the springs change? Please explain why you believe a change in ride height negates any discernible feel in a change in spring rates.
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A difference in spring height changes the bias in shock travel. Adding or taking away uptravel / downtravel will change the ride quality.

For example, outboarding or raising the front shock mounts allows for more uptravel assuming the rest of the Jeep is setup properly. That added uptravel is what creates a nicer ride.

Then the change in ride quality is related to the change in shock travel more than it is related to the change in spring.
 
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Fargo said:
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Before I jump into the mix, my question for @jjvw. Why the fixation on whether or not ride height changes when the springs change? Please explain why you believe a change in ride height negates any discernible feel in a change in spring rates.
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The performance of a shock's valving is contingent on the amount of travel (distance) it has available to perform it's work of damping the suspension's movement. Change the amount of travel distance and the shock will perform differently. Changing the ride height changes how a shock behaves.

Here is how shock valving works. On a very basic level, think of the shock valving as a cushion. A stunt man's crash pad is soft and thick. Sometimes many feet thick. After the jump from a multi story building, there is time as the stunt man falls through the pad to slow his speed before reaching the ground safely without injuring him.

Compare that to a motorcycle helmet. Due to practical constraints of the size of a helmet most are willing and able to wear, the padding must be thinner. As a result, that padding must be denser. There is less thickness (distance) to slow the speed of the rider's head into the pavement. The denser padding creates more time to slow the speed of the skull before reaching the end of it's travel with the hope of not killing the rider.

More shock travel allows for lighter damping to slow the speed of the shock piston before full compression. Less shock travel requires greater damping to slow the speed of the shock piston before full compression.
 
I understand what you're saying. But unless you're getting into the bumpstops the amount of travel is irrelevant. If the spring is a half inch taller or shorter its not likely to make a niceable difference. At least for initial feel. But I will grant you that we might be into our bumpstops more often than we realize. In that case it could make a difference.

As far as tuning by spring. Lets use OME springs in our example since they offer a variety of springs. Looking only at their rear springs designed for TJ/LJ lets consider the OME941 light spring with a rate of 140lbs/in vs the OME996 rated at 250lbs. Granted these springs will offer dramatic differences in height. So we will need to make some adjustments to the light spring. (In the end we are still using a hypothetical example. But bear with me.) So lets assume the light spring has a spacer under it to provide the exact same ride height as the 996. They are both bumpstopped at exactly the same height to avoid full coil bind on the light spring. So now we have one spring rated at 140lbs and another rated at 250lbs. Both of which offer the same range of travel and both springs are readily available today from any OME dealer.

Now lets pair these two coils up with the same shock absorber and take them for a test drive. What happens when the Jeep with a pair of 250 lb coils encounters a dip in the road inducing a force of 1000lbs? (Not unreasonable if you have an LJ with a heavy bumper and tire carrier and are packed for a weekend out camping) The rear of the Jeep will drop by 2" right? (250 x2 springs = 500 lbs/in; 1000/500=2") What happens to the springs with a rate of 140lbs? (140x2 springs = 280lbs/in; 1000/280=3.57") So the Jeep with the soft coils compresses the shocks by 3.57" Nearly twice as far. Now what happens at rebound? Is it not reasonable to expect the Jeep with 250lb springs to rebound considerably faster than the soft springs exerting only 140lbs of rebound force? The firm spring has 80% more force behind it. How could it not rebound faster? Depending on the shocks valving the soft spring might rebound at half the rate of the firm spring. The soft springs will rebound like a flat basketball next to the firm springs. Not only will the firm springs rebound faster, but the lighter springs also need to rebound nearly twice the distance. So now the soft springs need to rebound nearly twice as far at half the rebound speed. How can you discount the math and tell me that the spring rate doesn't make a difference?

Granted this is an extreme example, but it is plausible. These are readily available springs made for the TJ. You might like to argue that this Jeep is not setup properly with these springs. I agree. But you don't get to make that argument because you said all the spring does is set height. In this case both springs set the Jeep to the exact same height and had the exact same travel. The only difference is the spring rate.

That is how you tune your suspension by using only spring rate. Given everything else is equal. A soft spring will compress further and rebound slower. A firmer spring will compress less and rebound quicker.

I admit I don't have the experience that many of you have. So in practical terms the difference may be minimal or not noticable at all. But I will still argue that based on the math, the difference must still be there.

Have a Happy 4th of July.
 
A spring can only react against the force that is placed upon it. That force is the weight of the Jeep. The weight of the Jeep never changes.

I'll ask the very same question I ask every one else in these discussions. If one can tune the ride through springs and the springs alone with no other changes, then provide a method of doing so.

Every time I ask this question, we get a whole bunch of heated posturing and passionate assertions that springs matter, but no one can actually do it. Every example includes a change in ride height or some accounting for down force at high speed or some ability to carry heavy loads.

If Santa Clause exists in the real world, prove it.
 
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Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ radiator
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