Taking a knee conversations

[Chris S]

I agree that it is their right to protest, as protected, however like previously mentioned when in an athletic or professional setting, where you are representing your country, such as with the recent kneeling of Race Imboden at the Pan American Games, you are not entitled to protest in such a manner. As quoted by US Olympic and Paralympic committee, “No kind of demonstration or political, religious or racial propaganda is permitted in any Olympic sites, venues or other areas. " This was signed by and agreed upon by olympic athletes in the Olympic Charter. Specifically rule 50. Similar rules apply to US sports such as the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, etc and so I feel as though the kneeling is wrong in those situations (and others but Im going off what they CAN do not should and trying to leave opinion out of it)

(Link to article with quotes mentioned: here )

 

[jjvw]

I would throw out there that a lack of discipline is one reason, lack of respect is a second reason. We didnt see this shit in WW2, I a offended that a guy who was adopted, had a multi-million dollar contract felt like he was slighted by society, I never had the opportunities he had, I had to go in the military when I was 17 just so I did not die of alcoholism or poverty, because I grew up very poor, something Kapernick never knew...maybe for him not having new helmets and shoes 3-4 times a year was poor to him, we could not afford beef!

What was the intent behind the protest? At it's heart, does it really conflict with what you are positing? I am suggesting the despite Kaepernick's opportunities in life, the idea behind Black Lives Matter isn't baseless and seeks to address a very real problem that you and I likely can never fully understand.

We need to separate the substance of the protest from the venue for the protest as well as place all of it appropriately within it's context and history. Also up for scrutiny is the NFL's rule change in response to the protest.

 

[Baltimoreed]

I’m sorry, players at a ballgame are ‘on the clock’- ‘at work’ etc. To take a knee then should get you a disciplinary action from the upper management of some sort. When the game is over and you are NOT working go and protest all you want on your time. Besides the fools are protesting the national anthem? when the say they are protesting local police mistreatment of minorities. They are protesting the wrong thing duh. And how many of these guys have we seen standing in front of 1 Police Plaza with a sign when they are in town to play the Giants?

 

[Equilibrium31]

Whenever someone says that Kapernick or anyone kneeling during the anthem is "unpatriotic" because of this action, I just can't take it seriously. Kneeling during the anthem has never been done out of disrespect to the country, nor has it been done because they have wished to pose themselves in any sort of opposition to American values, nor the people who have fought for their freedom.

In fact, when you hear these people talk, they state their very patriotism as the reason for why they are choosing to kneel. They are kneeling because they believe people are abusing their power in ways that go against the values that are ingrained in our constitution and their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Do you believe that the Black Lives Matters movement is misguided? Do you believe that the highly controversial killings of black men that have inspired that movement were justified in the performance of the police officer's duty? If so, that's your prerogative, but just because these football players disagree with you doesn't mean that their motives are somehow spiteful or unpatriotic. It just means you disagree on something that you are both voicing openly, which is about as American as you can get.

 

[jjvw]

I’m sorry, players at a ballgame are ‘on the clock’- ‘at work’ etc. To take a knee then should get you a disciplinary action from the upper management of some sort. When the game is over and you are NOT working go and protest all you want on your time. Besides the fools are protesting the national anthem? when the say they are protesting local police mistreatment of minorities. They are protesting the wrong thing duh. And how many of these guys have we seen standing in front of 1 Police Plaza with a sign when they are in town to play the Giants?

What NFL rules were broken? At what point in time were these rules broken?

 

[Equilibrium31]

And yea, employers of athletes can penalize or promote their athletes based on what they choose to express, regardless of whether it is constitutional or not because of their authority as employers. They could fine every player who said that they loved America if they wanted. That doesn't have any bearing on if what these players are doing is actually patriotic or constitutional though.

 

[ptw]

Do you believe that the Black Lives Matters movement is misguided


yes I do

 

[L J]

Kneeling during the anthem has never been done out of disrespect to the country, nor has it been done because they have wished to pose themselves in any sort of opposition to American values, nor the people who have fought for their freedom.

How could you possibly know this?

In fact, when you hear these people talk, they state their very patriotism as the reason for why they are choosing to kneel. They are kneeling because they believe people are abusing their power in ways that go against the values that are ingrained in our constitution and their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

So why don't they take it up with those "people" instead of disrespecting our country and our flag?

Do you believe that the Black Lives Matters movement is misguided?

Yes.

Do you believe that the highly controversial killings of black men that have inspired that movement were justified in the performance of the police officer's duty?

I believe the claim that black men are singled out for murder by rogue police, anymore than any other demographic, is a bold faced lie and nothing more than political theater.

If so, that's your prerogative, but just because these football players disagree with you doesn't mean that their motives are somehow spiteful or unpatriotic.

I don't buy that for a minute. The kneeling changes nothing so it cannot be anything but spiteful and unpatriotic.

 

[kmas0n]

If you represent a sports team. Or a real team like the police or fire department, you are ALWAYS on the clock. At home. on the weekend. on your days off. on facebook. even this forum. If you choose to accept compensation to represent an organization you are always being watched and should act accordingly. This does not impinge on your freedom of speech, but it does affect your eligibility to receive compensation.

 

[Baltimoreed]

I don’t know if they broke any nfl rules or not but when you or I am at work we are being paid to do a task, run a machine, answer a phone, etc not use our first amendment rights to make some kind of racially charged political statement. I don’t disagree that minority’s are not treated right. This country has done a lot of evil to a lot of people but I still say that there’s a time and a place for everything but taking a knee when ‘at work’ was the wrong way to protest the mistreatment of minoritys.

 

[jjvw]

How could you possibly know this?



So why don't they take it up with those "people" instead of disrespecting our country and our flag?



Yes.



I believe the claim that black men are singled out for murder by rogue police is a bold faced lie and nothing more than political theater.



I don't buy that for a minute. The kneeling changes nothing so it cannot be anything but spiteful and unpatriotic.

Good. You are isolating BLM as an issue separate from footballing. What role does the NFL have in this?

 

[Sundowner]

The kneeling changes nothing so it cannot be anything but spiteful and unpatriotic.

Thankfully, we live in a country where we are free to be either or both of those things - or neither - and to express our views on such while being essentially free from penalty.

 

[Chris]

BLM = Bureau of Land Management

 

[jjvw]

BLM = Bureau of Land Management

I'm still going to use it this way within this context.

 

[L J]

Good. You are isolating BLM as an issue separate from footballing. What role does the NFL have in this?

Setting work rules and if one of them is that you cannot kneel during the national anthem then the violators should face disciplinary action.

Thankfully, we live in a country where we are free to be either or both of those things - or neither - and to express our views on such while being essentially free from penalty.

you'll get no argument from me on that point

 

[jjvw]

Setting work rules and if one of them is that you cannot kneel during the national anthem then the violators should face disciplinary action.

...

Which is why I brought up the rule change after the protest began. Is the rule change subject to scrutiny and criticism? Was it the right decision? Why or why not? Should a company compel it's employees to behave a certain way for the National Anthem? Why is the National Anthem a part of the NFL in such a manner that rules and codes of conduct must surround it? The company I work for does not compel me to sing the National Anthem or recite a pledge each morning before we start and I'm kinda glad they don't because that isn't why I'm there.

This is separate from the right of a company to create rules within the law for it's employees.

 

[L J]

Which is why I brought up the rule change after the protest began. Is the rule change subject to scrutiny and criticism?

everything and everybody is, or should be, subject to scrutiny and criticism

Was it the right decision? Why or why not?

TBH, I don't follow sportsball so I'm not familiar with the minutiae surrounding any rule or rule changes other than what I'd read about some employers directing some employees not to kneel.

Should a company compel it's employees to behave a certain way for the National Anthem?

If they wish. Why shouldn't they?

Why is the National Anthem a part of the NFL in such a manner that rules and codes of conduct must surround it?

The national anthem is a part of all major sportsball leagues and, I assume, most minor leagues. The most obvious reason, aside from genuine patriotism, that there are any rules or codes of conduct is the bottom line. I believe the NFL alone has lost hundreds of millions of dollars due to the backlash from this political theater.

 

[Baltimoreed]

Maybe a company should not compel its employees to behave a certain way for the National Anthem but there is a difference between standing to show your respect or disrespecting it and calling it a expression of one’s first amendment rights. If the anthem is a problem then just stay in the locker room until it’s over and deal with the management and the public backlash.

 

[jjvw]

... I believe the NFL alone has lost hundreds of millions of dollars because of this political theater.

Money? Say it ain't so! I thought this was about patriotism and respect for 'Merica.

 

[L J]

If the anthem is a problem then just stay in the locker room until it’s over and deal with the management and the public.

I believe that the phony "protesters" were given that option but that doesn't make for good, or bad, press.

Money? Say it ain't so!

I could say it ain't so but then I'd be lying.