Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts

Starting to lose hope: rough idle and dying in park

peoplethatcant

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Feb 2, 2024
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Location
Victoria, BC Canada
Hey Everyone,

I've been lurking/learning from y'all for a bit now, but hoping I might get some more targeted help in case there's an 'if A and B, then for sure C' that I'm missing.

Bought my TJ just over a year ago (with a fair few 1 beer problems with it), but what keeps plaguing me is a rough idle and lean condition. It seems like every time I find a faulty component and replace it things get perfect for a brief magical moment and then an hour or a day later it gets back to the same old shenanigans.

Things I've done (I've chased and solved other issues along the way):
-Replaced sparkplugs with the recommended brand/model from these forums
-Tightened the ever loosening exhaust manifold to downpipe bolts when they started hissing
-Took pictures of the downpipe cat honeycombs, seemed fine
-Replaced the o2 sensor on bank 1 (Once was a bad guess didn't change anything, the 2nd time was indeed why my trims went haywire that week)
-Cleaned and tightened battery cables, and engine bay fuse box connections
-Cleaned the IAC and throttle body (Both the spray in place and remove and spray methods, separate occasions)
-Replaced all fuel injectors (Saw one leak a bit when I rotated it)
-Checked compression
-Checked resistance values from PCM to fuel injectors and all sensors on the intake
-Checked resistance and voltage differentials on various parts of the frame and engine looking for bad grounds
-Pulled off grounds and cleaned em anyways
-Replaced the rotten rubber boots on the intake manifold with silicone tubing
-Smoked the intake with a cigar, also played the tubing to the ear all over game listening for hissing
-Stuck a vacuum in the tailpipe on blow, and listened all the way up the exhaust for leaks
-Got fed up, took it to a mechanic, they said cylinder 6 had a wet sparkplug, felt like an idiot for missing the obvious, replaced the coil pack
-Checked purge valve with a vacuum gauge, also blocked off the main vacuum ports and checked to see if trims were affected

Symptoms:
-Rough Idle, sounds like it's missing intermittently and very slight surging sometimes
-Loss of power and runs like crap on accel from a stop every so often
-The 'OBDII Module Voltage' on the OBDII scanner is showing lower than the actual voltage measured on the battery... Like, battery would read 14.2 at idle, scanner would say 13.1-13.6 fluctuating all the time. Can't find this anywhere to see if it's normal.
-Bank 1 LTFT +9-11%, Bank 2 LTFT +7-9% (After injectors and o2 sensor and coil pack these were +3 and +0 for a bit)
-Will randomly die from idle while I have it in park for 5-10 minutes. Like, looking at OBDII data with it running in driveway, the engine will just cut off. No warning, no noises, no sputter, nothing. Doesn't even have the little sigh the engine gives when you turn the ignition off. And sometimes this resets the radio and LTFTs, like the battery was unplugged
-Getting slightly alarming engine sounds at red lights every so often... engine gets louder, sounds like it wants to die, your basic 'running like crap' sound...
-Engine tick at idle, used to go away once warm, now it doesn't, but it's an old Jeep, soooo
-Air wooshing noise on acceleration, didn't used to be there

Every single symptom except the fuel trims and the air noise on accel is intermittent, the rough idle is intermittently not as bad, more better when cold, more worse when warm.

No codes come up pending or confirmed, and looking at the graphs of data points when it dies, they just abruptly stop. Like, rpms report 700 and then there is no more data, and no sensor data I can see goes haywire right before.

Anyways, I'm leaning towards the IAC valve as a culprit even though it's been cleaned? Except for the PCM resetting on stall, which points to electrical? Could a bad IAC cause a power surge to shut off the PCM? Seems to me like it would just throw a code if the IAC motor shorted out...

Any help or direction to avoid replacing everything as budget allows and watching the jeep continue to sit in the driveway undriven would be greatly appreciated. :)
 
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Exactly what forum recommended spark plug brand and model # is installed?

Have you tried replacing the Crankshaft Position Sensor? If so was it a high quality brand or was it a store brand?
 
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Exactly what forum recommended spark plug brand and model # is installed?

Have you tried replacing the Crankshaft Position Sensor? If so was it a high quality brand or was it a store brand?

Hey Jerry,

I replaced the sparkplugs based on your post here: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/what-are-the-best-spark-plugs-for-my-jeep-wrangler-tj-4-0.4196/
I can't recall which one I was able to find locally, but I made sure it was one of them that you recommended.

I have not tried replacing the CPS. If my post leads you to believe this could be caused by the CPS, I can go grab one.
 
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Hey Jerry,

I replaced the sparkplugs based on your post here: https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/what-are-the-best-spark-plugs-for-my-jeep-wrangler-tj-4-0.4196/
I can't recall which one I was able to find locally, but I made sure it was one of them that you recommended.

I have not tried replacing the CPS. If my post leads you to believe this could be caused by the CPS, I can go grab one.

When you replaced the o2 sensor what brand did you go with and did you check the brand on the other o2 sensors?
 
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When you replaced the o2 sensor what brand did you go with and did you check the brand on the other o2 sensors?

I used the NGK sensor, based on recommendations on this forum as well. I've tried to follow all the advice from y'all I can find. :)

It only failed the second time because it got fouled with oil, that's on me.
 
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Finally found something re PCM resetting itself... "PCM kept resetting its self every time the engine cut out" here: https://jeepforum.com/threads/pcm-issues-engine-cut-out-stalling.1558718/

In that instance the Jeep had a missing grounding strap.

Someone else mentioned on the same thread "I found the main positive cable that feeds the under hood fuse box was broken down inside the protective coating."

So I'm going to redo the potentially 20 year old battery/alternator/fuseblock leads and replace the hood-engine ground strap and see what symptoms improve (if any), based on this thread: https://www.wranglerforum.com/threads/battery-terminal-and-cable-upgrade-pics.1755313/

And then go from there, as I know grounding issues can cause a million random things.
 
Good day, aye. One of the symptoms of a faulty pcm is rough idle and stalling. The stalling happens more on manuals but it does happen on autos as well. How is the shifting from 1st to 2nd when cold? Do you have any codes?

Thanks,

Mark
 
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Good day, aye. One of the symptoms of a faulty pcm is rough idle and stalling. The stalling happens more on manuals but it does happen on autos as well. How is the shifting from 1st to 2nd when cold? Do you have any codes?

Thanks,

Mark

Hey Mark,

No issues shifting from 1-2. Sometimes a tiny bit of a hard shift out of overdrive on the highway, but that's it, and it's fairly consistent. And it's never stalled (yet) while driving, always just parked and idling.

No codes. Twice randomly about 4 months apart I got a code p301 that cleared itself after a drive cycle. And I've had bank 1 lean codes when the exhaust downpipes were a bit loose, or when the o2 sensor was bad.
 
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Have you replaced the TPS? I did not see it in your list above. That was the cause of rough idle and stalling in my 04.

I have not. And I did notice the throttle position does fluctuate at idle slightly on the scan graph... like 12.9 to 12.6%. No idea if that's relevant.

I figured the TPS shouldn't have much effect at idle, so that's good new info thanks. I'll add TPS to the list of sensors to try replacing.
 
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You can mail your pcm into us and we will test it in our jeep for you. Turnaround time is 24-48 hours.

That's awesome, and great to know. Since I'm in Canada, mailing it off to you is a bit more of a task, but if the new wiring leads and a few sensors don't pan out I'll take you up on that for sure.

Knowing it's a working unit on the way back either way is nice, as if it's bad I'd be waiting for one of your PCMs anyways.
 
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So an update...

I got the new battery leads installed. I found some corrosion I had missed under both body ground bolts on the firewall even though they looked perfect while installed. And the battery terminal clamps that had been there previously were... not ideal. But I found no issues with the actual wires once I pulled them out, except the ends in the battery terminal clamps.

Fired it up, idled almost perfectly. Like, if the previous rough rhythmic idle was a 7, now it was a 2. It has run better, but it has improved for now (it usually does improve for a while any time I replace a part or change anything though).

The fuel trims were better about +4% at first, but then to +7-8% when fully warm and they became more erratic. When it finally cut out and died, the PCM did not reset. So this tells me the PCM resetting was indeed from less than ideal ground connections/wires, but the stall is part of a broader issue.

While it was running, I brought the RPMs up to 1450 for about 45 seconds to see what I could see. The fuel trims went to near 0 (as usual), but the MAP PSI went down (vacuum increased, absolute pressure went down, it got farther from ambient pressure, whichever way you want to look at it). My understanding is this is completely backwards, and idle should be the highest vacuum reading in the intake.

I take that to mean there is in fact unmetered air entering the intake at idle, rather than a sensor misreading the extra air? Or of course, the MAP sensor is the culprit.

So I pulled off the throttle body to see if I could spot anything, and the IAC pintle was loose. See video here:

It seemed to also thread out when spun gently. I tightened it back up, to where it wasn't all loose, and plugged it into the harness and turned the key to ON to see if it would move. It didn't move in or out, but rotated about 1/8 turn.

So, my assumption is I need a new IAC valve. If anyone can give me any insight as to whether this video does in fact show a bad IAC, or whether I shouldn't have tried to tighten it, and if there is any sort of adjustment to be made to try to fix it? Otherwise I'll go drop the 175.00CAD for a BWD IAC tomorrow (my choices are the BWD tomorrow, or a NAPA Echlin on Monday for cheaper, assuming BWD is the better choice).

And sorry for writing a book about this, I just hope that someone more knowledgeable than me can spot any glaring flaws in my logic and let me know.
 
There are going to be others that are more knowledgeable than I am on what maybe causing the issue but I have a spare new IAC just in case for my ‘04. Just opened it up to check. The tip doesn’t move side to side at all. Even if you tighten yours, odds are it will loosen up again. 2 cents again others may feel different.
 
There are going to be others that are more knowledgeable than I am on what maybe causing the issue but I have a spare new IAC just in case for my ‘04. Just opened it up to check. The tip doesn’t move side to side at all. Even if you tighten yours, odds are it will loosen up again. 2 cents again others may feel different.

I appreciate you checking. Even if it turns out to not be the issue, I feel better about dropping cash on another part given that a new one doesn't behave that way. Thanks!
 
It seemed to also thread out when spun gently. I tightened it back up, to where it wasn't all loose, and plugged it into the harness and turned the key to ON to see if it would move. It didn't move in or out, but rotated about 1/8 turn.

So, my assumption is I need a new IAC valve. If anyone can give me any insight as to whether this video does in fact show a bad IAC, or whether I shouldn't have tried to tighten it, and if there is any sort of adjustment to be made to try to fix it? Otherwise I'll go drop the 175.00CAD for a BWD IAC tomorrow (my choices are the BWD tomorrow, or a NAPA Echlin on Monday for cheaper, assuming BWD is the better choice).

The IAC is very hard to test, because it's a stepper motor that requires a specific sequence of applying voltage/ground to pairs of pins to make it move in or out, which it does so by rotating a fraction of a turn for each step. You can thread it in/out by hand, but I can't imagine it's good for it. I've been working on a way to bench test one with an Arduino (which obviously everyone has lying around) but while it worked in the sim, it did not work on the bench so I've tabled that for the time being. Anyway, you've replace this much, why not it, too? Alternatively, you can remove it from the throttle body (leave it plugged in) and you can see the stepper motor move in/out like your dog's red rocket as it detects the high idle and tries to reduce air flow. The jeep should idle super high, but it will remove the IAC's control of airflow as the cause of your rough idle. It could still be that it's got a different problem that's more on the electrical side.

Remember that all these sensors run on basically the same 5V & ground, so if one is problematic it can affect the whole system. There are a number of posts on this forum talking about a rough idle that ended up being resolved by replacing the clock spring. I've never traced the circuit, but I guess it shares that same 5V & ground as the CPS, CKS, , etc and there's some evidence that it can cause a rough idle.

Good luck, these are always fun to track down. It's also very possible you've got one or more semi-shorted wires buried in the harness somewhere. In my experience I can all but guarantee you do; every jeep does. Whether or not it's the culprit I obviously can't say. Just one more thing to consider as you troubleshoot.
 
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Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts