A Story of Indecision and Frivolous Spending

Chris · Nov 24, 2018

Clint Rivera said:
That's what I was trying to explain to you.

While a Rough Country long arm, or whatever else the other shop was trying to build for you would work well in Oregon and where I wheel for most things, once you start to push your rig you are going to see the shortcomings rather quickly. Same thing with the stock suspension with a lift. Works great until it doesn't anymore, and then it gets ugly. The biggest difference you will feel will be the outboard, until you really start pushing stuff.

That makes perfect sense. Ultimately I'm building it with the desert in mind, as those are the places I plan to take it in a few years. This is another reason I felt like the Savvy mid-arm was a better option, because it was built with the desert in mind. Not just that, but I imagine that it will perform in the wheeling conditions up here in the PNW just fine as well.

Dave kept steering me towards his lift every time I brought up the Savvy mid-arm. He said he actually doesn't mind it on a LJ, but he doesn't like the way it performs on a TJ.

mrblaine · Nov 24, 2018

Chris said:
Sure, I'd appreciate that. That's mostly what I'm concerned about, that the frame brackets end up exactly where they should be.

The frame brackets are laid out on the center skid plate hole. We thread a bolt into them with a nut so they self center. They will need to trim your belly skid at the back where it interferes with the control arm bracket. If they would like some technical assistance and some general ideas what to look for and what the priorities are, I'm glad to chat with them. Biggest things are the rear brace for the truss to diff cover bolts is not optional. It should be used with a stock thickness diff cover to locate the truss properly fore and aft.

When they cut the front cast mount off the diff, it should be cut halfway through on a horizontal plane so the ears stick up through the truss and then are welded up. That provides a mechanical bond, not a fusion bond from welding. The truss can move with the weld filling the holes and even if they do break, it can't move due to it still being a tight fit.

There is an order to how to do things that helps if explained by someone who has done many of them. For instance, don't even try to do the axles under the rig, yank them out, strip them down, install the trusses and while the axles are out, do the frame brackets, rear brake lines, gas tank skid, etc.

mrblaine · Nov 24, 2018

Chris said:
That makes perfect sense. Ultimately I'm building it with the desert in mind, as those are the places I plan to take it in a few years. This is another reason I felt like the Savvy mid-arm was a better option, because it was built with the desert in mind. Not just that, but I imagine that it will perform in the wheeling conditions up here in the PNW just fine as well.

Dave kept steering me towards his lift every time I brought up the Savvy mid-arm. He said he actually doesn't mind it on a LJ, but he doesn't like the way it performs on a TJ.

No, it wasn't built with the desert in mind, it was built with performance in mind, no more, no less. It will work anywhere you take your rig.

mrblaine · Nov 24, 2018

Chris said:
Dave kept steering me towards his lift every time I brought up the Savvy mid-arm. He said he actually doesn't mind it on a LJ, but he doesn't like the way it performs on a TJ.

Dave should come play with us in JV. That waterfall on WB I posted above? I've seen a TJ on standard wheelbase drive up it and only due to the mid arm. I built the rig, but still, it's almost impossible otherwise.

mrblaine · Nov 24, 2018

Chris said:
BTW, is the Savvy mid-arm supposed to come with any sort of instructions? I doubt the shop will need it, since they do stuff like this, but I just wasn't sure if there are supposed to be instructions included for general guidelines when installing.

Not general, very specific locations.

Johnep93 · Nov 24, 2018

mrblaine said:
The frame brackets are laid out on the center skid plate hole. We thread a bolt into them with a nut so they self center. They will need to trim your belly skid at the back where it interferes with the control arm bracket. If they would like some technical assistance and some general ideas what to look for and what the priorities are, I'm glad to chat with them. Biggest things are the rear brace for the truss to diff cover bolts is not optional. It should be used with a stock thickness diff cover to locate the truss properly fore and aft.

When they cut the front cast mount off the diff, it should be cut halfway through on a horizontal plane so the ears stick up through the truss and then are welded up. That provides a mechanical bond, not a fusion bond from welding. The truss can move with the weld filling the holes and even if they do break, it can't move due to it still being a tight fit.

There is an order to how to do things that helps if explained by someone who has done many of them. For instance, don't even try to do the axles under the rig, yank them out, strip them down, install the trusses and while the axles are out, do the frame brackets, rear brake lines, gas tank skid, etc.

Why was it designed to specifically run a stock thickness diff cover and not some of the options that have better fill options for the more extreme pinion angles? Would it be possible to modify the brace to work with say the ARB diff covers?

jjvw · Nov 24, 2018

Johnep93 said:
Why was it designed to specifically run a stock thickness diff cover and not some of the options that have better fill options for the more extreme pinion angles? Would it be possible to modify the brace to work with say the ARB diff covers?

Too many variables. On mine, I had already replaced the stock diff cover with a thicker one from a Dodge Ram. I needed to thin down the top edge of the cover to make everything fit. I can't see that always being an option with some of the fancy fat covers out there.

As far as the fill hole goes, I learned recently that filling through the breather hole on the tube is much easier and cleaner.

Chris · Nov 24, 2018

mrblaine said:
The frame brackets are laid out on the center skid plate hole. We thread a bolt into them with a nut so they self center. They will need to trim your belly skid at the back where it interferes with the control arm bracket. If they would like some technical assistance and some general ideas what to look for and what the priorities are, I'm glad to chat with them. Biggest things are the rear brace for the truss to diff cover bolts is not optional. It should be used with a stock thickness diff cover to locate the truss properly fore and aft.

When they cut the front cast mount off the diff, it should be cut halfway through on a horizontal plane so the ears stick up through the truss and then are welded up. That provides a mechanical bond, not a fusion bond from welding. The truss can move with the weld filling the holes and even if they do break, it can't move due to it still being a tight fit.

There is an order to how to do things that helps if explained by someone who has done many of them. For instance, don't even try to do the axles under the rig, yank them out, strip them down, install the trusses and while the axles are out, do the frame brackets, rear brake lines, gas tank skid, etc.

Thanks Blaine, I appreciate this advice.

The shop I am having install it does mostly Jeeps, and when I showed him all of the parts, he said "Oh yeah, we can install this no problem". However, he hadn't heard of the Savvy mid-arm before, so I want to make sure that I can give him all of the proper information he needs to get it installed the way that Savvy intends for it to be installed.

He'd quoted me around $1500 for the install, but I'm very skeptical of that, since I think it will take a lot longer than he thinks (especially since they're outboarding the shocks as well).

I'll give him your notes, and if you don't mind, what number could I give him to contact you at if he has any questions along the way?

@jjvw gave me the informal document on the Savvy mid-arm install (though this is for an LJ), which I believe is Martin's write-up. I'll post it here so you can see it (@jjvw, if it shouldn't be up here, let me know and I'll take it down).

My thought was that hopefully I could come prepared when I drop my Jeep off on Monday and give them some sort of ordered list of what needs to happen to install this mid-arm the right way, and what can be done to make it easier (i.e. removing the axles to install the trusses).

Last thing I want to do is have to do this over again!

jjvw · Nov 24, 2018

I've never shared it publicly. I'll defer to Blaine on that since he's our closest connection to Savvy.

Chris · Nov 24, 2018

jjvw said:
Too many variables. On mine, I had already replaced the stock diff cover with a thicker one from a Dodge Ram. I needed to thin down the top edge of the cover to make everything fit. I can't see that always being an option with some of the fancy fat covers or there.

As far as the fill hole goes, I learned recently that filling through the breather hole on the tube is much easier and cleaner.

One more reason those Currie / Barrett diff covers are the best bet. Armor on the bottom where you need it, but stock up top, so it won't get in the way.

mrblaine · Nov 24, 2018

Johnep93 said:
Why was it designed to specifically run a stock thickness diff cover and not some of the options that have better fill options for the more extreme pinion angles? Would it be possible to modify the brace to work with say the ARB diff covers?

As stated, too many variables and there are stock thickness options available. Better fill is subject to opinion since the fill level should be done by volume, not level. We've never had a single issue filling with the correct volume with a stock style cover but there again, we don't do extreme pinion angles and the Mid-arm is not designed around the foolishness of them.

Johnep93 · Nov 24, 2018

jjvw said:
Too many variables. On mine, I had already replaced the stock diff cover with a thicker one from a Dodge Ram. I needed to thin down the top edge of the cover to make everything fit. I can't see that always being an option with some of the fancy fat covers out there.

As far as the fill hole goes, I learned recently that filling through the breather hole on the tube is much easier and cleaner.

I can see that. My thing is what about oil burn off, and it just seeping out over time, or is the proper service interval frequent enough for that? No one ever talks about diff fluid, and I just put about a half a bottle in my truck last night and it doesn't visibly leak any. I ask more about keeping proper fluid levels, because I assume keeping just the right amount of fluid is just as important to the diff as an engine where enough is just right, or a little low is better than a little high.

mrblaine · Nov 24, 2018

jjvw said:
Too many variables. On mine, I had already replaced the stock diff cover with a thicker one from a Dodge Ram. I needed to thin down the top edge of the cover to make everything fit. I can't see that always being an option with some of the fancy fat covers out there.

As far as the fill hole goes, I learned recently that filling through the breather hole on the tube is much easier and cleaner.

How thick is the Ram cover? Do you have a source? As long as it isn't too much thicker, there should be enough play in the brace to work, no?

mrblaine · Nov 24, 2018

Johnep93 said:
I can see that. My thing is what about oil burn off, and it just seeping out over time, or is the proper service interval frequent enough for that? No one ever talks about diff fluid, and I just put about a half a bottle in my truck last night and it doesn't visibly leak any. I ask more about keeping proper fluid levels, because I assume keeping just the right amount of fluid is just as important to the diff as an engine where enough is just right, or a little low is better than a little high.

We don't lose fluid but if I had a problem child, I would fill it with the proper volume, bend up a wire dip stick, dip it, mark it, and then use that as a "level" indicator to keep it at the correct volume.

You'll know when it is too high. The spinning shaft will pick it up and pump it out the breather. Don't worry, when it gets to the right level, it will stop.

Johnep93 · Nov 24, 2018

mrblaine said:
As stated, too many variables and there are stock thickness options available. Better fill is subject to opinion since the fill level should be done by volume, not level. We've never had a single issue filling with the correct volume with a stock style cover but there again, we don't do extreme pinion angles and the Mid-arm is not designed around the foolishness of them.

One would argue in some ways that the savvy TT and 4" of lift would be an extreme angle in relation to stock, or am I misunderstanding about setting pinion angles for the changes to the driveline? I can see filling by volume instead of level, you will have to excuse the ignorance, as I'm used to always seeing transmissions and diffs filled by level as opposed to volume.

mrblaine · Nov 24, 2018

Chris said:
Thanks Blaine, I appreciate this advice.

The shop I am having install it does mostly Jeeps, and when I showed him all of the parts, he said "Oh yeah, we can install this no problem". However, he hadn't heard of the Savvy mid-arm before, so I want to make sure that I can give him all of the proper information he needs to get it installed the way that Savvy intends for it to be installed.

He'd quoted me around $1500 for the install, but I'm very skeptical of that, since I think it will take a lot longer than he thinks (especially since they're outboarding the shocks as well).

I would go have a chat with him. That is less than what it takes to generally just outboard the shocks. The mid arm is deceiving if you want a clean job. It isn't hard, but can be time consuming and he is around a third low on that one.

Chris said:
I'll give him your notes, and if you don't mind, what number could I give him to contact you at if he has any questions along the way?

Same as always. Get it off the site and listen to the message all the way through to get my pocket phone number.

Chris said:
@jjvw gave me the informal document on the Savvy mid-arm install (though this is for an LJ), which I believe is Martin's write-up. I'll post it here so you can see it (@jjvw, if it shouldn't be up here, let me know and I'll take it down).

My thought was that hopefully I could come prepared when I drop my Jeep off on Monday and give them some sort of ordered list of what needs to happen to install this mid-arm the right way, and what can be done to make it easier (i.e. removing the axles to install the trusses).

Last thing I want to do is have to do this over again!

It's been posted all over the place so I don't think it matters.

The hardest part is making the rear brake line look clean and knowing the routing right off the bat. Make sure you mention flipping the calipers to the front on the rear axle for the shock outboard. The Wizard brackets can assist in that endeavor.

Johnep93 · Nov 24, 2018

mrblaine said:
We don't lose fluid but if I had a problem child, I would fill it with the proper volume, bend up a wire dip stick, dip it, mark it, and then use that as a "level" indicator to keep it at the correct volume.

You'll know when it is too high. The spinning shaft will pick it up and pump it out the breather. Don't worry, when it gets to the right level, it will stop.

Well my truck is a 00 with 168k miles and I'm the first I'm aware of to even check fluid since factory, it's been in my family since 03. I guess learning to actually properly maintain the vehicle is a better place to start.

toximus · Nov 24, 2018

Chris said:
Thanks Blaine, I appreciate this advice.

The shop I am having install it does mostly Jeeps, and when I showed him all of the parts, he said "Oh yeah, we can install this no problem". However, he hadn't heard of the Savvy mid-arm before, so I want to make sure that I can give him all of the proper information he needs to get it installed the way that Savvy intends for it to be installed.

He'd quoted me around $1500 for the install, but I'm very skeptical of that, since I think it will take a lot longer than he thinks (especially since they're outboarding the shocks as well).

I'll give him your notes, and if you don't mind, what number could I give him to contact you at if he has any questions along the way?

@jjvw gave me the informal document on the Savvy mid-arm install (though this is for an LJ), which I believe is Martin's write-up. I'll post it here so you can see it (@jjvw, if it shouldn't be up here, let me know and I'll take it down).

My thought was that hopefully I could come prepared when I drop my Jeep off on Monday and give them some sort of ordered list of what needs to happen to install this mid-arm the right way, and what can be done to make it easier (i.e. removing the axles to install the trusses).

Last thing I want to do is have to do this over again!

The most important pages are the initial notes on pages 14 and 16 of that document. That's all I needed to install the midarm.

toximus · Nov 24, 2018

mrblaine said:
I would go have a chat with him. That is less than what it takes to generally just outboard the shocks. The mid arm is deceiving if you want a clean job. It isn't hard, but can be time consuming and he is around a third low on that one.

I would also ask to see previous work as that can show how much shop supplies are used. I personally dislike holding wires into place with lots of zip ties. A padded clamp is much cleaner but costs many times more in parts and labor.

Chris · Nov 24, 2018

toximus said:
The most important pages are the initial notes on pages 14 and 16 of that document. That's all I needed to install the midarm.

After reading through it and paying attention to those pages, I would have to agree, those two pages look like the most important ones to pay attention to.

I've been reading about the mid-arm so much, that if I knew how to weld and had the space, I feel very confident I could do it myself.

mrblaine said:
I would go have a chat with him. That is less than what it takes to generally just outboard the shocks. The mid arm is deceiving if you want a clean job. It isn't hard, but can be time consuming and he is around a third low on that one.

The hardest part is making the rear brake line look clean and knowing the routing right off the bat. Make sure you mention flipping the calipers to the front on the rear axle for the shock outboard. The Wizard brackets can assist in that endeavor.

Part of the low cost had to have been because he said they've been unusually dead this month, so it was very easy for him to get me in this coming week. He did tell me that it might end up costing more, and I've personally set aside up to $4000 to cover this project, just incase.

I sent you a personal email regarding the Wizard brackets. I'm not sure how they'd make it work without those, and I like the fact that the brackets would definitely make it look like a cleaner install.

I'll give the guys (there names are Russ and Him, and they both own the place (RJ's Chassis Dynamics) together. So if one of them gives you a buzz this week, don't be surprised.

I appreciate your help on this. I was going to have Dave install it, but he kept pushing me very hard to forget the Savvy mid-arm and go with his mid-arm. I personally feel more confident in the Savvy mid-arm, only because I've never owned anything from Savvy that I didn't like. In addition to that, it would have taken Dave probably 6-months just to get to my rig.

A Story of Indecision and Frivolous Spending

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