Chevy Vortec 4200 (Atlas family engine)

mrblaine said:

Fine, what is your opposing view that doesn't revolve around a position of inexperience?

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Again, I'm not claiming experience, you don't have to point that out like it's a revelation to make your point.

The opposing view being that the knowledge and parts are readily available for working through problems with an LS (or any of the other more common options) such as aftermarket kits that fit. Anything can be made to fit anything with enough fabrication, we all know that. But I'm having a hard time seeing that the challenges presented with the Atlas swap are fewer/better than those challenges of a V8 for less power/potential. One of those being the oil pan difference (front sump vs rear sump) that was mentioned. If you're having to custom fabricate an oil pan, that seems like a wash compared to fabricating exhaust. From my understanding, the LS is several inches shorter (front to back) which creates potential challenges for the Atlas and drivetrain package with driveshaft length.

mrblaine said:

Normal is when I have to trim off the front of the upper control arm mount to keep it off of the radiator hose, and then hard bump it so the joint doesn't smack the AC compressor too hard.
View attachment 643826

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Gotcha, I moved my AC compressor up top, so passenger side has all the clearance in the world.

Abendage said:

Gotcha, I moved my AC compressor up top, so passenger side has all the clearance in the world.

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That is the left side.

mrblaine said:

That is the left side.

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Ok, then that isn’t an LS and is outside the scope of my post.

bbaldwin237 said:

Again, I'm not claiming experience, you don't have to point that out like it's a revelation to make your point.

The opposing view being that the knowledge and parts are readily available for working through problems with an LS (or any of the other more common options) such as aftermarket kits that fit. Anything can be made to fit anything with enough fabrication, we all know that. But I'm having a hard time seeing that the challenges presented with the Atlas swap are fewer/better than those challenges of a V8 for less power/potential. One of those being the oil pan difference (front sump vs rear sump) that was mentioned.

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We had to take the special steel LS oil pan and hack one side off and plate it back to create clearance for the front driveshaft to swing under it.
We had to hack up the off the shelf "LS SWAP" motor mounts to move the engine over to be off center like the stock 4.0 is.
We had to pull the tub to get the exhaust out of the way of the upper control arm.
We had to build a custom front axle to move the drive shaft over so it didn't slam into the oil pan. NOTE- We had to do it, we did not order it.

bbaldwin237 said:

If you're having to custom fabricate an oil pan, that seems like a wash compared to fabricating exhaust. From my understanding, the LS is several inches shorter (front to back) which creates potential challenges for the Atlas and drivetrain package with driveshaft length.

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You should spend some time on the 4200 swap page. They have a multitude of aftermarket folks building products to solve all of the common issues from harnesses to intakes to oil pans.

Still think exhaust is easier?

Abendage said:

Ok, then that isn’t an LS and is outside the scope of my post.

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It gives you a perfect point of reference and lets you know that even if it was an LS, the uptravel doesn't change.

mrblaine said:

We had to take the special steel LS oil pan and hack one side off and plate it back to create clearance for the front driveshaft to swing under it.
We had to hack up the off the shelf "LS SWAP" motor mounts to move the engine over to be off center like the stock 4.0 is.
We had to pull the tub to get the exhaust out of the way of the upper control arm.
We had to build a custom front axle to move the drive shaft over so it didn't slam into the oil pan. NOTE- We had to do it, we did not order it.

You should spend some time on the 4200 swap page. They have a multitude of aftermarket folks building products to solve all of the common issues from harnesses to intakes to oil pans.

Still think exhaust is easier?
View attachment 643836

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Check out the Blackheart motor mounts. Their design would have eliminated most of those issues.

Abendage said:

Check out the Blackheart motor mounts. Their design would have eliminated most of those issues.

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Not possible, motor location had almost zero to do with solving the problems. Not willing to compromise the suspension was why we had to solve them. There are no motor mounts that change the swing of the driveshaft to keep it off of the oil pan and out of the motor at the front. HP front axles and uptravel are the problem.

mrblaine said:

Not possible, motor location had almost zero to do with solving the problems. Not willing to compromise the suspension was why we had to solve them. There are no motor mounts that change the swing of the driveshaft to keep it off of the oil pan and out of the motor at the front. HP front axles and uptravel are the problem.

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Then these issues are irrelevant to motor swap discussion and likely would have been an issue with the stock engine. The Blackheart mounts put the crank centerline in the exact same position as the 4.0 so if you’re having driveshaft/oil pan clearance issues it is irrelevant to the motor.

Abendage said:

Then these issues are irrelevant to motor swap discussion and likely would have been an issue with the stock engine. The Blackheart mounts put the crank centerline in the exact same position as the 4.0 so if you’re having driveshaft/oil pan clearance issues it is irrelevant to the motor.

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Not sure why you're struggling with this. We build consistently around a basic level of uptravel so we don't wind up with compromised suspension performance in favor of our engine choice. I showed the basic level where the mount interferes with the stock radiator hose and then the stock AC compressor, so no, not an issue with the stock motor.

It was much worse and not doable with the supplied mounts until we cut them off and moved the motor back and over. It was that or limit uptravel by 5" which we were not willing to do.

Nothing at all against your value system but I would never copy it and wind up motor rich and suspension poor. That just doesn't do it for me. If it works for you, that's fine but it also breeds a level of ignorance over what it takes to get suspension performance to be commensurate with engine performance. For us, an LS swap with short arms is the equivalent of a HP 60 front axle with TJ outers. Lots of folks have that, we won't ever be in that group.

mrblaine said:

If it works for you, that's fine but it also breeds a level of ignorance over what it takes to get suspension performance to be commensurate with engine performance. For us, an LS swap with short arms is the equivalent of a HP 60 front axle with TJ outers. Lots of folks have that, we won't ever be in that group.

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This statement breeds the level of ignorance that your intended use and pleasure derived from a vehicle is the only use and pleasure acceptable, I struggle with that level of arrogance. Everyone has different goals and that doesn't make them ignorant. A HP60 with TJ outers with no other changes will have no noticeable change in the driving experience in a vehicle other than adding weight, you cannot say the same about a motor swap. I did not perform my motor swap for offroad performance and I did not ignorantly make that decision thinking I was. I wanted it to be fun to drive on the street and be able to safely keep up with traffic on 80mph highways and still be able to wheel moderately difficult trails in Colorado and Utah. Engine swap satisfied the first goal with no ill effects on the second. Other than swapping from a manual to an auto, irrelevant to the motor, the swap isn't noticeable offroad unless you want it to be.

Again, the issues you're presenting are not inherent of the engine, they're issues to your specific build/situation, not sure why you're struggling with this. High pinons and front axles aren't the topic of discussion, you have to build around them with a stock engine, one would assume if that's your goal you'd have to do the same with a different engine.

Abendage said:

This statement breeds the level of ignorance that your intended use and pleasure derived from a vehicle is the only use and pleasure acceptable, I struggle with that level of arrogance. Everyone has different goals and that doesn't make them ignorant.

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The fact that you have struggled to understand reasonable uptravel is still in play. Stick whatever label you want on it, it won't change what you don't understand.

Abendage said:

A HP60 with TJ outers with no other changes will have no noticeable change in the driving experience in a vehicle other than adding weight, you cannot say the same about a motor swap.

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Nice deflection but it has nothing to do with what I said. I pointed out clearly that we don't share the same value system and the 60 was just an example to illustrate that.

Abendage said:

I did not perform my motor swap for offroad performance and I did not ignorantly make that decision thinking I was. I wanted it to be fun to drive on the street and be able to safely keep up with traffic on 80mph highways and still be able to wheel moderately difficult trails in Colorado and Utah. Engine swap satisfied the first goal with no ill effects on the second. Other than swapping from a manual to an auto, irrelevant to the motor, the swap isn't noticeable offroad unless you want it to be.

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Again, different values. There is no condemnation, just observation.

Abendage said:

Again, the issues you're presenting are not inherent of the engine, they're issues to your specific build/situation, not sure why you're struggling with this. High pinons and front axles aren't the topic of discussion, you have to build around them with a stock engine, one would assume if that's your goal you'd have to do the same with a different engine.

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No, they are and will be and have been inherent to any build I have done. We care about suspension, you don't and that's okay. And while you may not think they aren't the topic of discussion, they should be since none of the motor swap discussions address the difficulties one may encounter. Just because you didn't, doesn't mean others won't and will do a swap and stay on short arms.

In fact, until you showed up, I wasn't even aware that anyone would do that, now I know.

I'd like to see one swapped into a TJ while at the same time once the new Hurricane I6 becomes available I'd like to see one of them swapped in too.

mrblaine said:

The fact that you have struggled to understand reasonable uptravel is still in play. Stick whatever label you want on it, it won't change what you don't understand.

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I understand it just fine. The uptravel you show in your picture isn't reasonable for 90% of the builds out there and you're claiming it "normal". Now if you were to clarify, stretched front, coilovers, 40's, etc then sure, that looks very reasonable. Now correct me if I'm wrong, which I have no doubt you will, the "accepted Forum" build for 35's is 4" of lift, 1.25" body and most people run 3" of bumpstop extension with that setup. That setup doesn't even get close to putting the upper control arm bracket into the lower hose or compressor. So what one considers reasonable is all about the specific build. Your definition of normal or reasonable is not the same as others. I understand it just fine and understands it changes to what the set up is and the desired outcome.

mrblaine said:

Again, different values. There is no condemnation, just observation.

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Then chose a different vocabulary, with phrases like "breeds levels of ignorance" and I value this and you don't. Those statements are about as condemning as they get.

mrblaine said:

In fact, until you showed up, I wasn't even aware that anyone would do that, now I know.

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Glad I could enlighten. (Yes, well aware that your statement was a passive aggressive jab, just returning the favor).

Abendage said:

The uptravel you show in your picture isn't reasonable for 90% of the builds out there and you're claiming it "normal".

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SHOW'EM UNREASONABLE UPTRAVEL BLAINE!

Abendage said:

I understand it just fine. The uptravel you show in your picture isn't reasonable for 90% of the builds out there and you're claiming it "normal". Now if you were to clarify, stretched front, coilovers, 40's, etc then sure, that looks very reasonable. Now correct me if I'm wrong, which I have no doubt you will, the "accepted Forum" build for 35's is 4" of lift, 1.25" body and most people run 3" of bumpstop extension with that setup. That setup doesn't even get close to putting the upper control arm bracket into the lower hose or compressor. So what one considers reasonable is all about the specific build. Your definition of normal or reasonable is not the same as others. I understand it just fine and understands it changes to what the set up is and the desired outcome.

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Fuck off. You have a 1% build and want to lecture me on what is normal?

Abendage said:

Then chose a different vocabulary, with phrases like "breeds levels of ignorance" and I value this and you don't. Those statements are about as condemning as they get.



Glad I could enlighten. (Yes, well aware that your statement was a passive aggressive jab, just returning the favor).

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If you missed it the first time, fuck off.

Coming back to the core here, I don't want a 500hp TJ. Around 300 is going to give great highway and offroad performance for a vehicle at this weight. A 4-valve crossflow head flows much better that 2 valve most of the time. And most of all the dimensions and layout line up with the TJ arguably better than any V8 or stock.

I'm going down the stroker path and have my reasons, but the 4200 is very appealing and I'd love to see it done and cheer along.

GoldenGorilla said:

Coming back to the core here, I don't want a 500hp TJ. Around 300 is going to give great highway and offroad performance for a vehicle at this weight. A 4-valve crossflow head flows much better that 2 valve most of the time. And most of all the dimensions and layout line up with the TJ arguably better than any V8 or stock.

I'm going down the stroker path and have my reasons, but the 4200 is very appealing and I'd love to see it done and cheer along.

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If you did want 500, the FB folks are good at extracting that pretty reliably. My original interest was piqued when I saw the torque and how low in the RPM band it made most of it.

mrblaine said:

Still think exhaust is easier?

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With the exhaust routed above the transmission housing that close , did you need to compensate with a larger transmission cooler, or was there no noticeable difference in ATF temps ? I'm also going to make an assumption that the exhaust was wrapped in that area afterwards to mitigate heat buildup on the transmission and floorboards?