Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts

Dyno Testing Bolt-ons On The 4.0

On a stock air box, the airflow is up through the filter allowing larger particles to fall to the bottom of the airbox. The oiled K&N traps that dust and clogs much quicker. Gave up on K&Ns for off road use years ago. Non dusty environments they seem to work well.

I'm familiar with the issues with K&N's filter media in dusty environments and that's why I said I'm not using that brand or even a filter of that style. I ended up going with an aFe intake and one of their dry media filters. I've kept my OEM box and it's parts, and will be keeping a close eye on the CAI and it's filter.
 
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That one doesn't surprise me and I agree with the assessment that eventually with more significant engine mods it could become a benefit, but not at stock.

I installed the BBK 62mm throttle body at the same time I did my 1.7 roller rockers about 7 months ago. I don't believe it on it's own would have a significant impact on power on a stock motor, but it wouldn't hurt it either. With more significant head/cam/stroker/forced induction work, the 58mm stock bore would eventually become a bottleneck. I'm planning to go down those roads eventually, but it isn't hurting anything now except the sting to my wallet.

I do get a small whistle sound at a specific partial throttle position near closed, say 10-20% open. I believe it is the sharp edge on the throttle plate. It matches the machined opening on the horseshoe style intake manifolds and that is not the source of whistling. Others have had more significant whistling.
 
I'd be interested in a smoke test on the Windstar intake and new throttle body.

Great video and I can't wait to see what exhaust does paired with the throttle body.

-Mac
 
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Note in an earlier post I was showing the straw that crosses over from the stock box to throttle body at 50mm it is for sure smaller inside then it looks. I am thinking Factor in some restrictions are happening there as well.

I suspect the tube provides a much smaller proportion of the total loss than the filter does, even the Windstar one.

The losses present as less pressure available at the throttle, and therefore less MAP at WOT. The pressure loss is proportional to the square of velocity, which is inversely proportional to the square of diameter, but velocity isn't necessarily a bad thing, either because it carries momentum and kinetic energy so there's likely an ideal diameter that optimizes both velocity and pressure or at least a point where the returns diminish.

The pressure loss in an elbow is typically equivalent to multiple FEET of straight tubing and they offer no benefit to velocity so it makes sense to keep the intake tract as short and straight as possible, and when bends are unavoidable, make their radius as large as practical. Roughness of the interior wall plays a role but that surface is already pretty smooth compared to something like a cast intake runner. Those flexible accordion boot sections are probably the biggest restriction in the system after the filter.
 
I suspect the tube provides a much smaller proportion of the total loss than the filter does, even the Windstar one.

The losses present as less pressure available at the throttle, and therefore less MAP at WOT. The pressure loss is proportional to the square of velocity, which is inversely proportional to the square of diameter, but velocity isn't necessarily a bad thing, either because it carries momentum and kinetic energy so there's likely an ideal diameter that optimizes both velocity and pressure or at least a point where the returns diminish.

The pressure loss in an elbow is typically equivalent to multiple FEET of straight tubing and they offer no benefit to velocity so it makes sense to keep the intake tract as short and straight as possible, and when bends are unavoidable, make their radius as large as practical. Roughness of the interior wall plays a role but that surface is already pretty smooth compared to something like a cast intake runner. Those flexible accordion boot sections are probably the biggest restriction in the system after the filter.

For the elbow, it would be a cool experiment to 3D print one with turning vanes like those used in high-end air ducts. The elbow itself is already better than a sharp bend, but from what I've seen, elbows with vanes tend to out-perform open elbows. I doubt you'd see any noticeable power gain here though.

As for the accordion section, there is actually a possibility it could help, though I'd have to dig up old textbooks to actually do the math. There is a concept of using a turbulator on airflows with low Reynolds numbers, with the idea being that if you create turbulence at the boundary layer, it can actually extend the distance to flow separation, thus actually improving aerodynamics. They're often used on aircraft and sometimes on boats. Usually it looks like a random riffled piece secured near the front.

The latest trend tends to be to use vortex generators instead, so the riffled ones aren't all that common anymore.
 
I suspect the tube provides a much smaller proportion of the total loss than the filter does, even the Windstar one.

The losses present as less pressure available at the throttle, and therefore less MAP at WOT. The pressure loss is proportional to the square of velocity, which is inversely proportional to the square of diameter, but velocity isn't necessarily a bad thing, either because it carries momentum and kinetic energy so there's likely an ideal diameter that optimizes both velocity and pressure or at least a point where the returns diminish.

The pressure loss in an elbow is typically equivalent to multiple FEET of straight tubing and they offer no benefit to velocity so it makes sense to keep the intake tract as short and straight as possible, and when bends are unavoidable, make their radius as large as practical. Roughness of the interior wall plays a role but that surface is already pretty smooth compared to something like a cast intake runner. Those flexible accordion boot sections are probably the biggest restriction in the system after the filter.

Elbow is about 10’ of extra length
 
I'd be interested in a smoke test on the Windstar intake and new throttle body.

Great video and I can't wait to see what exhaust does paired with the throttle body.

-Mac

For other reasons I needed to run a smoke test on my intake when I had it off to replace the motor mount an install the headers. The BBK 62mm does see a bit of smoke come through the IAC port and maybe a tiny bit past the throttle plate. I had to stuff a rag in it while I was chasing down my leak at the manifold gasket. I've never smoke tested with the stock throttle body, but I'd be surprised if it didn't behave the same.
 
I suspect the tube provides a much smaller proportion of the total loss than the filter does, even the Windstar one.

The losses present as less pressure available at the throttle, and therefore less MAP at WOT. The pressure loss is proportional to the square of velocity, which is inversely proportional to the square of diameter, but velocity isn't necessarily a bad thing, either because it carries momentum and kinetic energy so there's likely an ideal diameter that optimizes both velocity and pressure or at least a point where the returns diminish.

The pressure loss in an elbow is typically equivalent to multiple FEET of straight tubing and they offer no benefit to velocity so it makes sense to keep the intake tract as short and straight as possible, and when bends are unavoidable, make their radius as large as practical. Roughness of the interior wall plays a role but that surface is already pretty smooth compared to something like a cast intake runner. Those flexible accordion boot sections are probably the biggest restriction in the system after the filter.

I only have basic fundamentals that I am applying from some old fire service pumping hydraulics class. I think you guys have a few more education hours invested 👍 With that thought I am just thinking everything is incremental in friction loss from getting from the high pressure side to low pressure side. My CAI design was use the bigger XJ filter, a larger 3” pipe..keep it short as possible and draw air from outside the engine compartment. Luck would have it I only have the 90 turning down into the throttle body.
 
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For the elbow, it would be a cool experiment to 3D print one with turning vanes like those used in high-end air ducts. The elbow itself is already better than a sharp bend, but from what I've seen, elbows with vanes tend to out-perform open elbows. I doubt you'd see any noticeable power gain here though.

As for the accordion section, there is actually a possibility it could help, though I'd have to dig up old textbooks to actually do the math. There is a concept of using a turbulator on airflows with low Reynolds numbers, with the idea being that if you create turbulence at the boundary layer, it can actually extend the distance to flow separation, thus actually improving aerodynamics. They're often used on aircraft and sometimes on boats. Usually it looks like a random riffled piece secured near the front.

The latest trend tends to be to use vortex generators instead, so the riffled ones aren't all that common anymore.

Could this be the proper application for boogs favorite accessory at the leading into point of the elbow?😁


1752954915158.jpeg
 
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Elbow is about 10’ of extra length

Equivalent length tables can be tricky because the loss depends on pipe diameter, bend radius, velocity, and density. I didn't come up with much when applied to the speeds involved here because it's well outside of what's commonly used in HVAC duct sizing, but I found some loss factors that can be used with the velocity and fluid properties that might work better and it came out to about 2 equivalent feet in this case.

I only have basic fundamentals that I am applying from some old fire service pumping hydraulics class. I think you guys have a few more education hours invested 👍 With that thought I am just thinking everything is incremental in friction loss from getting from the high pressure side to low pressure side. My CAI design was use the bigger XJ filter, a larger 3” pipe..keep it short as possible and draw air from outside the engine compartment. Luck would have it I only have the 90 turning down into the throttle body.

Ran some numbers for rpm at peak power, assuming VE of 1 (which will inflate the numbers somewhat)

I'm fairly confident in the tube number, the elbow numbers might be inflated because I didn't take off my intake tube to measure the ID there, but it does look like they increase a bit before entering the throttle body so I ran them with a diameter halfway between the 50mm tube and the 60mm TB. The accordion boot requires some pretty extreme extrapolation because the depth of the folds puts it well outside the widely available data.

1753124226283.png


The number suggest that the 5" of accordion boot is about equivalent to the entire 16" tube, and that both combined are only about 75% as much as the two successive elbows feeding the throttle body. In total, about 0.7psi, which means a reduction in the maximum available MAP by the same amount.

If you cut the elbow bends down to just 1 and used a true long radius elbow (bend radius to diameter ratio of 1.5, assuming there's room under the hood), used a flexible coupling instead of the accordion and kept the ID to 60mm matching the TB throughout, you can cut the losses by a significant proportion and bump the MAP by about half a psi. The engine guys will have to tell us how much power that's worth.

1753124346534.png


I ran the numbers for a duct internal diameter of 68mm and it only changed it by 0.07 psi so I think beyond 60mm is a diminishing return from a pressure loss standpoint, and even 60 may be past it already from a power standpoint.

EDIT: Updated screenshots with final pressure values in kPa because that's how Jezza refers to MAP in his dyno test video.
 
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Now that I've had a chance to watch the Windstar intake dyno video...

The difference in density between 147° and 120° intake air accounts for 5hp out of the 10hp gained, assuming an equal AFR and without even accounting for any timing advance. Since the MAP didn't change between the two intakes, and when it did change 1-2kPa by removing the filter altogether but didn't change the power output, I think the reduced IAT accounts for most if not all of the improvement.

I did find it very interesting that they used a 210cfm filter on an engine that probably pulls 260 at the power peak (assuming an 80% VE).

It's on my mod wish list now....I hate how "soft" it feels when I'm highway cruising in hot weather. Would be nice to get it done before I take off across western Oklahoma, Texas and NM in a month but that might be optimistic.
 
Now that I've had a chance to watch the Windstar intake dyno video...

The difference in density between 147° and 120° intake air accounts for 5hp out of the 10hp gained, assuming an equal AFR and without even accounting for any timing advance. Since the MAP didn't change between the two intakes, and when it did change 1-2kPa by removing the filter altogether but didn't change the power output, I think the reduced IAT accounts for most if not all of the improvement.

I did find it very interesting that they used a 210cfm filter on an engine that probably pulls 260 at the power peak (assuming an 80% VE).

It's on my mod wish list now....I hate how "soft" it feels when I'm highway cruising in hot weather. Would be nice to get it done before I take off across western Oklahoma, Texas and NM in a month but that might be optimistic.

I don't remember his numbers but I believe the stock intake was running around 40* hotter at idle. I think the two numbers you just posted are his idle vs wot numbers for the windstar. It is one of my favorite cheap mods.
 
I don't remember his numbers but I believe the stock intake was running around 40* hotter at idle. I think the two numbers you just posted are his idle vs wot numbers for the windstar. It is one of my favorite cheap mods.

I thought I heard 147 for the stock setup and 118 for the Windstar at WOT right before the end of the pull. I just left the value at 120 because I was too lazy to redo the interpolation for 2 degrees.

A WOT with an IAT of 170 would lose 10hp worth of density vs 120.
 
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I don't remember his numbers but I believe the stock intake was running around 40* hotter at idle. I think the two numbers you just posted are his idle vs wot numbers for the windstar. It is one of my favorite cheap mods.

Insulate it for more effect. It’s small but it can help. The intake tube is only a small fraction of the heat gain though. Most of it probably happens in the intake manifold.

If you have an older TJ, I believe they use a manifold air temperature sensor in lieu of an air intake temp sensor. Newer TJs, at least 05-06, use an IAT sensor. They estimate MAT based on that and other variables like coolant temperature and airflow.

I went ahead and had the intake header and an aftermarket exhaust header along with the entire catalytic converter assembly coated in a low-emissivity ceramic coat known as Piston Coat (a variant of generic Cerakote). That made a huge difference on reducing pre-ignition due to aggressive spark timing, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it means more air going into the cylinders as well (due to the lower density).

I have a newer TJ so it doesn’t show up in the sensor, but I’d be interested to see if someone gets a noticeable temperature drop on a manifold air temp sensor from doing something similar. (I did adjust the spark retard threshold upwards a bit due to the theoretically cooler air.)
 
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I thought I heard 147 for the stock setup and 118 for the Windstar at WOT right before the end of the pull. I just left the value at 120 because I was too lazy to redo the interpolation for 2 degrees.

A WOT with an IAT of 170 would lose 10hp worth of density vs 120.

You could be right. The idle and part throttle numbers for the windstar were also an impressive gain
 
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Insulate it for more effect. It’s small but it can help. The intake tube is only a small fraction of the heat gain though. Most of it probably happens in the intake manifold.

If you have an older TJ, I believe they use a manifold air temperature sensor in lieu of an air intake temp sensor. Newer TJs, at least 05-06, use an IAT sensor. They estimate MAT based on that and other variables like coolant temperature and airflow.

I went ahead and had the intake header and an aftermarket exhaust header along with the entire catalytic converter assembly coated in a low-emissivity ceramic coat known as Piston Coat (a variant of generic Cerakote). That made a huge difference on reducing pre-ignition due to aggressive spark timing, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it means more air going into the cylinders as well (due to the lower density).

I have a newer TJ so it doesn’t show up in the sensor, but I’d be interested to see if someone gets a noticeable temperature drop on a manifold air temp sensor from doing something similar. (I did adjust the spark retard threshold upwards a bit due to the theoretically cooler air.)

My 97 has an IAT sensor as well.

@jjvw used some sort of wrap on his windstar setup and posted results in his build thread somewhere.

The ceramic coating sounds like a better option for my header than header wrap. I already have very little room when combining the later intake and early header.

I used a stick on heat shield on the bottom of my intake. It hasn't visibly degraded on peeled off in the 5 years since I built the stroker.
https://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-13575-Adhesive-Aluminized-Barrier/dp/B00029KC2K?tag=wranglerorg-20
 
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My 97 has an IAT sensor as well.

@jjvw used some sort of wrap on his windstar setup and posted results in his build thread somewhere.

The ceramic coating sounds like a better option for my header than header wrap. I already have very little room when combining the later intake and early header.

I used a stick on heat shield on the bottom of my intake. It hasn't visibly degraded on peeled off in the 5 years since I built the stroker.
https://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-13575-Adhesive-Aluminized-Barrier/dp/B00029KC2K?tag=wranglerorg-20

Do both the intake header and exhaust header if you can. Catalytic converters are optional but will noticeably reduce underhood and underfloor heat.

Piston coat is only available in two colors. I went with the default gold:
https://www.cerakote.com/shop/cerakote-coating/V-136/piston-coat-oven-cure
There is also a metallic red version:
https://www.cerakote.com/shop/cerakote-coating?finishes=cera_low_thermal

Since it has low both low emissivity and low absorbtivity, it greatly reduces the amount of heat transferred by radiation, as well as adding an additional layer to slow convective heat transfer.

I thought about wrapping as well, but decided the additional risk of cracking the exhaust header wasn't worth it.
 
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Novak Conversions Jeep Wrangler TJ engine mounts